Ole Miss/TxAM RTK

[BrendanP]

So this situation kind of challenges whether the punter would even be afforded kicker protection when he was hit. From the TV replay, it looked to me like the kicker was hit even before he kicked the ball, which would mean the hit was legal, as he's not yet a kicker. Maybe this should be on the list of rules to review in the off-season? Perhaps change the rule for RTK to only a hit after the ball has been clearly kicked. Just floating ideas.

[wlemonnier]

Tough call... thought the defender hit the leg just before the kick... maybe the kicker was lucky to still get a foot on the ball.  One angle looked like he hit the kicker's leg before the kick, one view gave me doubt.  I can see why it was "stands".

[wlemonnier]

NOTE:  Replay can review if the kick was tipped but not the timing of the contact on the kicker... that judgment call strictly belongs to the R & CJ.

Also... play made for replay @ 1:21 of the 2nd Quarter... on-field ruling had the runner down short of the line to gain... replay reviewed whether Team B stole the ball before the runner was down.  Play ended up a fumble and Team B's ball after the review.  Again, a play made for replay and kudos to replay on a good, tough reversal.

[Joe Stack]

I would have a really hard time NOT calling a RTK on a play like that where the defender hit the extended leg of the kicker just before the punt.

The kicker is any player who punts, drop kicks or place kicks according to rule

A punt is a kick by a player who drops the ball and kicks it before it strikes the ground

Since a punt is a kick, and a punt includes the drop through the actual foot hitting the ball, it is still RTK to hit a player who is in the process of punting -- dropping the ball, which the Aggie punter clearly was doing.

[Legacy Zebra]

It's not a kick until he kicks it. If he hasn't kicked it yet, he's not a kicker. If he's not a kicker, how can you have roughing the kicker?

[wlemonnier]

The RRK is debatable as to when the kick starts... what if he whiffed on the kick and got hit.  It was an extremely tight situation that I don't fault the flag for but I believe if the foot hasn't hit the ball there's no kick so no RRK.  If a passer in the the throwing motion, it's not a pass unless he releases the ball.  If he pulls it down it's still a running play not a passing play so when does this change to a kick play?  I'll run it by RR and see what he says and do another post next week.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Approved Ruling 9-1-16
I.   A1 catches a long snap and plans to punt from behind his line of scrimmage but misses the ball, which falls to the ground. A1 is then contacted by B1. RULING: Team A fumble. No foul by B1. There is no kicker until the ball is kicked.

I'll go with the RTK if the contact is so close that it takes slow motion replay to judge if the contact came before/after the kicker's foot contacted the ball unless B actually touches the ball (blocks the kick).  Since per rule 12 replay can only review "touching of a kick" this one is still a judgment call.

[Joe Stack]

If he hasn't kicked it yet, he's not a kicker.

Did you read the punt definition I posted? The AR listed above assumes contact AFTER the ball hits the ground ("then..."), which makes it not a punt ("before it strikes the ground"), and therefore not a kick.

As soon as he drops the ball to kick it, by definition, he is a kicker. If he ENDS UP missing it, and there's contact, then yeah, the contact is legal. But if the ball and the leg are both in the air and, like last night, the contact is so close that you can't tell at full speed whether the contact or the actual boot of the ball happened first, you have to throw the flag. Given the protection the rules give kickers, holders, quarterbacks, receivers, and players being blindsided blocked, its clear this is the intent of the rule.

[Kalle]

As soon as he drops the ball to kick it, by definition, he is a kicker. If he ENDS UP missing it, and there's contact, then yeah, the contact is legal. But if the ball and the leg are both in the air and, like last night, the contact is so close that you can't tell at full speed whether the contact or the actual boot of the ball happened first, you have to throw the flag. Given the protection the rules give kickers, holders, quarterbacks, receivers, and players being blindsided blocked, its clear this is the intent of the rule.

I agree with you that this is a safety foul so you should err on the side of the flag, when you are in doubt. But, as per rule and the A.R., if you know that the contact was immediately before the leg hits the ball, you must pass on the flag.

[wlemonnier]

The rule (2-16-3) does say "a punt is a kick by a player who drops the ball AND kicks it before it strikes the ground". 

Dropping it by itself is not a punt... dropping and kicking makes it a punt.  The word dropping is in there to distinguish a punt from a drop kick, a place kick, a free kick & kickoff.

Again, I have no problem with the call on the field... it protected the kicker.  It's not reviewable for when the contact occurs, only the touching/tip is reviewable.

[bkdow]

. There is no kicker until the ball is kicked.

+1

[Joe Stack]

Dropping it by itself is not a punt

Of course not. That's silly. But dropping it STARTS the process -- especially since the leg is going toward the ball (lack of a better way of describing it). I stated "drops the ball TO kick it." I didn't say just drop it.

The rule doesn't say, "begins with... and ends with..." so we have to use our own judgment and view the intent of the rule. The player that was hit in the Texas A&M game WAS a kicker.

[SanDiegoStryker]

The player that was hit in the Texas A&M game WAS a kicker.

Why does it seems like you are the only one who thinks so?

[TxSkyBolt]

No he's right. The punter was kicker. Just not one until after he actually kicked the ball. :-)


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[Johnponz]

I would go with whatever Bill says.  He has been at this for a long time and definitely knows what he is talking about. 

When it comes to calls that Rs need to make, his answers are pretty much definitive in my book.

[psv]

I respectfully disagree those who think that the action is not clearly RTK if not by strict lawyerly definition then by spirit of the rule.

The player is in a scrimmage kick formation ready to receive the snap.  The play/game situation is such that you would expect a punt.  The player is making the necessary football moves to kick the ball (receives the snap cleanly, takes a step forward, arms extended, ACTUALLY DROPS THE BALL, in the process of raising the leg).  Are we now slicing it so fine, that this action which is common to a punter punting the ball should not be considered RTK because the ball didnt hit the foot first?  Even though, everyone and their dog knows the player is attempting to punt the ball?

If the answer here is "Yes, we are slicing it that fine" then I agree with the OP that the rule needs to be changed, but it needs to be changed in the other direction.  This action is clearly an attempt to kick the ball, and if that is not clear in the rules that this player should receive the protection afforded to kickers trying to punt the ball, the rule needs to change to afford that protection.

Just so you all know, if you are calling with me and I am the R, I will be calling this RTK.... 

just my .02 worth

[The Ref Thats Lef]

There is an argument that the rules support the call anyway.

ARTICLE 3. a. The kicker is any player who punts, drop kicks or place kicks according to rule. He remains the kicker until he has had a reasonable time to regain his balance.

Note the rule says when he stops being a kicker but not when he begins being one only that he is one if he kicks the ball.

Then in rule 9

ARTICLE 16. a. When it is obvious that a scrimmage kick will be made, no opponent shall run into or rough the kicker or the holder of a place kick.

So in the play in question we have a kicker because he kicked the ball and we have a defender roughing him when a kick was obvious. It depends if you read this as meaning once he kicks the ball he was always a kicker.

I have not seen this specific play but in similar ones I have seen there is often still contact with the kicker after his foot touches the ball so even if you decide he cannot be a kicker retrospectively at this point you still have the two things needed for a foul.

[wlemonnier]

Again, I have no problem with the call on the field... it protected the kicker.  It's not reviewable for when the contact occurs, only the touching/tip is reviewable.

9-1-16-a does read "when it is obvious a scrimmage kick will be made, no opponent shall run into or rough the kicker."  "Obvious" is in reference to the team being in scrimmage kick formation, the kicker still being in the tackle box, and a snap that is fielded cleanly by the "kicker".  If the "kicker" leaves the tackle box, wasn't in a SK formation, or the snap sailed over the "kicker's" head... it's not obvious a scrimmage kick will be made so protection is not afforded for RRK/RNK.  You can argue that if the defender can contact the kicker before his foot hits the ball, it's not obvious a SK will be made.

The forum discussion is exactly what forums should be about... debate, arguments & learning.  I'll close with stating one more time that I support the call for RRK as everyone else really has done too.

[BrendanP]

Again, I have no problem with the call on the field... it protected the kicker.  It's not reviewable for when the contact occurs, only the touching/tip is reviewable.

But should it be reviewable? Just to play devil's advocate here, how does the injury potential reduce from getting blasted if the punt is blocked versus if it isn't, as in this situation, where an inch would make all the difference?

[wlemonnier]

Should it be reviewable?  It's basically a judgment call, just like the timing on DPI is judgment.  No, it's a call for the official to make.

[NVFOA_Ump]

But should it be reviewable? Just to play devil's advocate here, how does the injury potential reduce from getting blasted if the punt is blocked versus if it isn't, as in this situation, where an inch would make all the difference?

I think that you're missing the point of the rule.  It's simply if you rush and hit the kicker without contacting the ball then it's a penalty.  That gives us a clear and definitive guideline to use in making the call.

[DallasLJ]

RR has weighed in -- and it is a Foul for Roughing the Kicker.  Training tape at CFO website has this as one of the plays.

[BrendanP]

RR has weighed in -- and it is a Foul for Roughing the Kicker.  Training tape at CFO website has this as one of the plays.

Yeah I can see that. Probs would have flagged it myself at full-speed, but I wonder if RR weighed in on the Michigan/Oregon State question of rugby kickers and their protection.

[TXMike]

RR has weighed in -- and it is a Foul for Roughing the Kicker.  Training tape at CFO website has this as one of the plays.

  Welllll.......not sure if we can use this play when discussing hit before kick.  As far as the ball went it seems pretty clear the ball WAS kicked before the punter was hit.  Also, RR does nit even address that aspect.  He talks as if it is just the typical RTK play so I don't think he can be said to rule that a hit that starts BEFORE the ball is kicked should be RTK.