10-Second Runoff End Of 2nd Qtr

[SJ_2010]

AR 3-4-4
V.   Fourth quarter with the game clock running and Team A trailing in the score. Second and 10 at the B-30. Guard A66 in a three-point stance misses the snap count and lurches forward, committing a false start. B77 then commits a deadball personal foul or a dead-ball foul for unsportsmanlike conduct. The game clock is stopped with 8 seconds remaining in the game. RULING: The game is over because Team B will accept the 10-second runoff associated with the false start. Thus the penalty for B77’s dead-ball foul is not enforced.
Note: If this action occurred at the end of the first half the penalty for B77’s foul would carry over to the second half. Because of the 10-second runoff, by interpretation the dead-ball foul effectively occurs after the half has ended and thus the penalty is thus carried over.

Follow up to the above:
If this same action above occurs with 35 seconds left in the first half, the ruling is A 1/10 B-20 with a 10-second runoff. A would be penalized 5 yards and a 10-second runoff for the FST, B would be penalized 15 yards plus an auto first for the UNR/UNS.  Both penalty statements are succeeding spot so that works.  Where I need some clarity is the AR interpretation above at 8 seconds.  Why would they only enforce B77's penalty to start the second half as the penalty statement for the FST and the UNR/UNS are both from the succeeding spot?  Wouldn't it be correct to start the 2nd half after enforcement of both or is there a rule exception I am missing that allows us to not enforce the dead-ball FST? 

     

[Kalle]

The reason is that the rules committee doesn't want procedural fouls to carry over. Thus, they in effect say that the sequence of events is this:

1. A66 fouls.
2. The clock stops.
3. The runoff happens.
4. The half is over.
5. B77 fouls.

[Johnponz]

The way I remember this is that the only fouls that can carry over to the next half or period are UNS/UNR fouls.  This seems to work and is a correct rule of thumb (I do not believe I am missing anything)

[bossman72]

I agree with Kalle.  After the administration of the runoff, the succeeding spot now automatically changes to the kickoff location for the 2nd half.  Now, the UNR is enforced.  To expand Kalle's sequence of events


(Succeeding spot B30)
1) FST A66, then UNR B77.  These are enforced separately and in the order of occurrence.
2) 5 yard FST penalty marched off.
3) 10 sec runoff enforced.
(half has now ended.  Succeeding spot is now the kickoff spot for 2nd half).
[The enforcement of the FST is now over]
4) 15 yard UNR B77 enforced.  Kickoff from the 20 or 50, depending on who has to kickoff.

[SJ_2010]

If the half ends with the first dead-ball foul, what are you going to do with the following:

Second quarter with the game clock running and Team A trailing in the score. Second and 10 at the B-30. B44 runs to the B-25 where he is tackled in bounds.  After the play is over A99 commits a dead-ball personal foul or dead-ball UNS.  The game clock is stopped with 8 seconds remaining in the game.   

[TxSkyBolt]

I'm confused. A is always the team possession the ball. Do you mean ball carrier A44? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SJ_2010]

Yes, A44.  Thank you for the correction TxSkyBolt!

If the half ends with the first dead-ball foul, what are you going to do with the following:

Second quarter with the game clock running and Team A trailing in the score. Second and 10 at the B-30. A44 runs to the B-25 where he is tackled in bounds.  After the play is over A99 commits a dead-ball personal foul or dead-ball UNS.  The game clock is stopped with 8 seconds remaining in the game. 

[Kalle]

Second quarter with the game clock running and Team A trailing in the score. Second and 10 at the B-30. A44 runs to the B-25 where he is tackled in bounds.  After the play is over A99 commits a dead-ball personal foul or dead-ball UNS.  The game clock is stopped with 8 seconds remaining in the game.

Half over, no carryover to the 2nd half kickoff. A is penalized already by the runoff, so no need to add yardage.

[bossman72]

Agree with Kalle.  UNR enforced to the B40, 10 sec runoff, half over.

[SJ_2010]

Agree with Kalle.  UNR enforced to the B40, 10 sec runoff, half over.

That is the danger in going off rule with AR 3-4-4 V is that many assume the 10 second runoff and the end of the quarter is the only penalty.  The UNR/UNS is a dead ball foul so the correct enforcement is the succeeding spot in all circumstance (10-2-2-a).  Including IMHO if this happened at the end of regulation of a tied game. However the ruling in AR 3-4-4 V leads many to believe that in certain circumstances succeeding spot enforcement doesn't apply but we don't know every case when it applies and when it doesn't because we don't have rule language to match the interpretation.

See ruling on Play 19 from attached 2011 memo from RR.

19. Second and 5 at the B-30. Ball carrier A22 is tackled at the B-28 for a two-yard gain. A few seconds after the ball is dead A78 commits a personal foul or a foul for unsportsmanlike conduct. When the officials flag this foul and stop the game clock, there are 7 seconds left.
RULING: The dead-ball foul by A78 causes the clock to stop and the 10-second subtraction applies. The game is over.
NOTE: If this happens in the second quarter the penalty will be enforced at the start of the second half.




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[Kalle]

That is the danger in going off rule with AR 3-4-4 V is that many assume the 10 second runoff and the end of the quarter is the only penalty

Well, I consider the distance penalty and the yardage penalty to happen simultaneously. I also consider the play situation bulletin play to conflict with the A.R., and as the A.R. has been included after the bulletin play, I think the bulletin play is no longer relevant.

Then again, my track record in guessing what RR thinks is pretty bad, so I wouldn't be surprised if he were to reiterate the play situation ruling.

[SJ_2010]

Second quarter with the game clock running and Team A trailing in the score. Second and 10 at the B-30. A44 runs to the B-25 where he is tackled in bounds.  After the play is over A99 blocks late knocking a B player to the ground.  B77 retaliates and blocks A99 to the ground.  The game clock is stopped with 8 seconds remaining in the game. 

So, if I'm understanding your interpretation of the AR correctly you would say the half ends on A99's foul and then B77's penalty is enforced rather than cancelling the penalties (10-1-5-exc)?

IMHO the correct ruling is half is over and the penalties cancel.
 

[Kalle]

So, if I'm understanding your interpretation of the AR correctly you would say the half ends on A99's foul and then B77's penalty is enforced rather than cancelling the penalties (10-1-5-exc)?

No, the more specific rule is 10-1-5-ex, so neither foul ends up being enforced on the 2nd half, as the fouls cancel. I think you could even invoke 3-4-4-e and have no runoff, but I'm not sure about that, as offsetting is not the same as canceling.

[SJ_2010]

No, the more specific rule is 10-1-5-ex, so neither foul ends up being enforced on the 2nd half, as the fouls cancel. I think you could even invoke 3-4-4-e and have no runoff, but I'm not sure about that, as offsetting is not the same as canceling.

As you can see above I agree with your ruling and your reference.  Not sure why you tried to correct me on penalties cancelling.  Fouls are not enforce, as you said, penalties are. Also not sure how you are getting to no runoff with rule 3-4-4-e.  10-1-5-exc does not say anything about the fouls offsetting, only that the yardage penalties cancel. In case you didn't know there is a difference between a foul and a penalty.

Half over, no carryover to the 2nd half kickoff. A is penalized already by the runoff, so no need to add yardage.

I respectfully disagree with your artificial creation of the end of the half, which has no rules book basis, and also your arbitrary interpretation of when it applies and when it doesn't.

If I had RR's ear, my proposal would be to strike 3-4-4 V from the book and let the rules determine how the dead-ball penalties are enforced. In theory that should lead to more consistency between officials.  So there is an occasional procedural penalty that gets enforced in the second half.  Better that than a dead-ball UNR or UNS (i.e. play 19) that does not get enforced due to a misinterpretation of the current AR.

[Bwest]

Yes, A44.  Thank you for the correction TxSkyBolt!

If the half ends with the first dead-ball foul, what are you going to do with the following:

Second quarter with the game clock running and Team A trailing in the score. Second and 10 at the B-30. A44 runs to the B-25 where he is tackled in bounds.  After the play is over A99 commits a dead-ball personal foul or dead-ball UNS.  The game clock is stopped with 8 seconds remaining in the game.

I also agree with Kalle. This foul occurred in the 2nd quarter. The penalty will also be administered in the second quarter: both yardage and runoff. There is no provision to carry it over to another period (such as if the foul had occurred on a scoring play or try). The half is over and the statistician will write that the drive ended at the B-40.

[Kalle]

As you can see above I agree with your ruling and your reference.  Not sure why you tried to correct me on penalties cancelling.  Fouls are not enforce, as you said, penalties are. Also not sure how you are getting to no runoff with rule 3-4-4-e.  10-1-5-exc does not say anything about the fouls offsetting, only that the yardage penalties cancel. In case you didn't know there is a difference between a foul and a penalty.

I wasn't correcting anything except your interpretation of how I would rule (as I would rule in this case similarily to you). And yes, thank you, I do know the difference between a foul and a penalty (this does remind me to remember that fouls offset and penalties cancel). I am sometimes guilty of using sloppy language (partially as English is not my native languate).

[Kalle]

I sent the following email to RR, let's see if he responds (never tried this myself).

1. Does the A.R. 3-4-4-V supercede the 10-second subtraction example from 2011 (play 19)?

A.R.: Fourth quarter with the game clock running and Team A trailing in the score. Second and 10 at the B-30. Guard A66 in a three-point stance misses the snap count and lurches forward, committing a false start. B77 then commits a deadball personal foul or a dead-ball foul for unsportsmanlike conduct. The game clock is stopped with 8 seconds remaining in the game.
RULING: The game is over because Team B will accept the 10-second runoff associated with the false start. Thus the penalty for B77’s dead-ball foul is not enforced.
Note: If this action occurred at the end of the first half the penalty for B77’s foul would carry over to the second half. Because of the 10-second runoff, by interpretation the dead-ball foul effectively occurs after the half has ended and thus the penalty is thus carried over.

2011-19 example: Second and 5 at the B-30. Ball carrier A22 is tackled at the B-28 for a two-yard gain. A few seconds after the ball is dead A78 commits a personal foul or a foul for unsportsmanlike conduct. When the officials flag this foul and stop the game clock, there are 7 seconds left.
RULING: The dead-ball foul by A78 causes the clock to stop and the 10-second subtraction applies. The game is over.
NOTE: If this happens in the second quarter the penalty will be enforced at the start of the second half.

2. If the example 2011-19 is still valid, do all dead-ball foul penalties carry over to the second half if committed at the end of the first half?

Example: Second quarter with the game clock running and Team A trailing in the score. Second and 10 at the B-30. Guard A66 in a three-point stance misses the snap count and lurches forward, committing a false start. The game clock is stopped with 8 seconds remaining in the half.
RULING: The runoff is accepted and the half is over. Does the 5-yard penalty carry over to the second half kickoff?

[Kalle]

Hrmph, got a prompt but somewhat irrelevant answer. RR only answered #2 and the answer is that the FS penalty does not carry over to the second half, as the foul is committed at a time when there is still time in the half. He did not say anything about the validity of the 2011-19 play.

So, based on that, I'm guessing that RR wants the DB fouls to be handled in sequence and the ZAP-10 to be enforced concurrently with the enforcement of the first penalty, with the other fouls happening at the time shown on the game clock after ZAP-10.

[Johnponz]

Without overthinking it, I would say that unless if it is at the end of the game all Dead Ball Personal Fouls and USCs should be enforced. 

I know the rule does not specifically state it that way, but that seems to be the philosophy.  I am not for sure how to answer it as a test question.