Scrimmage Kick Formation

[centexsports]

The rule change this year mandates a kicker (for a punt) be at least 10 yards deep.   If the "kicker" is 8 yards deep and #25 is the deep snapper, is this an illegal formation?


4. Scrimmage Kick Formation (Rule 2-16-10) FR-35
 Change to paragraph a:  (New language is in bold italics)
 “A scrimmage kick formation is a formation with no player in position to receive a hand-to-hand snap from between the snapper’s legs, and with either (1) at least one player 10 or more yards behind the neutral zone; or (2) a potential holder and potential kicker seven or more yards behind the neutral zone in position for
 a place kick. For either (1) or (2) to qualify as a scrimmage kick formation, it
 must be obvious that a kick will be attempted.”
 
 Comments:   This  clarification  of  the  definition  of  a  scrimmage  kick     formation reinforces the intent of the rule that allows exceptions to the numbering rule when a team apparently is going to punt or attempt a field goal

[NVFOA_Ump]

Technically yes - but I'm not throwing my flag if this is a 4th down play and they actually kick the ball from that formation.  I'd talk to the coach and "advise" him that the rule allowing the numbering exception requires that the kicker be 10 or more yards back, and we'd appreciate it if he could fix the error so we don't have to flag it the next time.

[TXMike]

The guidance we put out over the Summer was at the subvarsity level, enforce like NVFOA says.  Dont be a stickler on the distance.  At varsity level, follow the rule

[centexsports]

The first game of the year, I had this and after the first punt, I told the coach and he got it fixed the rest of the night.   Last week, I had a TAPPS school playing a UIL school and the TAPPS school punter was only 8 yards deep.  I didn't flag them but it has been bugging me since then.   

[DallasLJ]

While I agree a warning might be appropriate early in the year, if I have the same subvarsity team again, then I will likely flag it.

  Two other points about the new scrimmage kick formation rule.  First, if the Kicker (punter) is less than 10 yards, the Snapper is not protected by the one second rule.  While maybe not a big issue in an 8th grade game, this is a big issue on Friday night.  Second, the Kicker (punter) still has Roughing the Kicker protection -- as long as it is "obvious that a scrimmage kick will be made".

  Just a little something to think about heading into the weekend.

[centexsports]

Is this protection from roughing
1) A NCAA approved ruling?
2) Other

Nothing that I have found indicates another deviation from the standard protection for the "kicker".   Also, I think I remember in the pre-season clinic, we were told that he was not protected.

[Clear Lake ref]

If he is 8 yards deep and clearly in punt formation I would say protection exists, especially if it isn't the QB taking the snap.

[centexsports]

OK, no problem but why not the snapper?

[DallasLJ]

OK, no problem but why not the snapper?

  9-1-14, Contact Against the Snapper, starts with "When a team is in a scrimmage kick formation, a defensive player . . . .

  I originally thought the 10 yards were required to give roughing protection to the punter, but after extensive discussion with our Rules Clinician, I discovered that this is not true -- regardless of what they said at a clinic.  The definition of "scrimmage kick formation" only affect two rules (a) the numbering exception of 7-1-4 and (b) the Contact Against the Snapper rule.

  No where in the definition of "scrimmage kick" is a "scrimmage kick formation" required.  Nor does the definition of Kicker require the kick be from a scrimmage kick formation.  And, Rule 9-1-16, Roughing / Running into the Kicker also does not required a scrimmage kick formation.  All that is required is that "it is obvious that a scrimmage kick will be made."

[JasonTX]

While I agree a warning might be appropriate early in the year, if I have the same subvarsity team again, then I will likely flag it.

  Two other points about the new scrimmage kick formation rule.  First, if the Kicker (punter) is less than 10 yards, the Snapper is not protected by the one second rule.  While maybe not a big issue in an 8th grade game, this is a big issue on Friday night.  Second, the Kicker (punter) still has Roughing the Kicker protection -- as long as it is "obvious that a scrimmage kick will be made".

  Just a little something to think about heading into the weekend.

And when is it obvious that a kick will be made?  When they are in a scrimmage kick formation.

[Legacy Zebra]

So if a field goal unit comes out and the holder sets up at 6 yards instead of 7, you're saying it's not obvious that they're about to attempt a field goal and you wouldn't have roughing the kicker? It's the same with a punter. Just because he's at 9 yards instead of 10 doesn't mean we don't all know what they're about to do. Now if he's been lining up at 12 all night and suddenly he's up at 9, then you could say it wasn't obvious because it's not what they had been doing. But if they're lining up at 9 all night, its pretty obvious what they're going to do.

Being obvious that a kick will be attempted is a requirement for a scrimmage kick formation. Being in a scrimmage kick formation is not a requirement for it to be obvious a kick will be attempted.

[JasonTX]

AR 9-1-16 III is as close as we currently have.

A1, from a nonscrimmage kick formation, makes a quick, unexpected
kick so suddenly that B1 cannot avoid contact. RULING: This is
not roughing or running into the kicker since the rule applies only
when it is obvious that a kick will be made.

[JasonTX]

Since there was some discussion on punter protection in regards to the scrimmage kick formation.  I sent the question to Rogers Redding.  Part of what I sent was these 3 statements.

In review this is how I understand it.

1.  The numbering exception is allowed only if they are in a scrimmage kick formation.  (Potential kicker 10 yards on a punt, 7 for a field goal)

2.  The snapper is not afforded protection unless they are in a scrimmage kick formation.

3.  The kicker's protection is dependent on whether or not is is obvious a kick may be attempted.  It is not tied to the scrimmage kick formation requirements.  Other rules to consider are the rugby style kickers who carry the ball outside the tackle box. 


Reddings Response:  "I agree that your statements 1, 2, and 3 are correct."

[BlindZebra]

So if a field goal unit comes out and the holder sets up at 6 yards instead of 7, you're saying it's not obvious that they're about to attempt a field goal and you wouldn't have roughing the kicker? It's the same with a punter. Just because he's at 9 yards instead of 10 doesn't mean we don't all know what they're about to do.

Very true, but how can the kicker get protection if he hasn't kicked the ball yet?  As far as Team B knows, he is just another runner.  If we don't have a kick and Team B hits that player legally, how can you have a foul?  Just because they were in scrimmage kick formation and he was a potential kicker even though there was no kick?