SD State / ND State trick play

[ncwingman]

In the I-AA playoffs, South Dakota State ran a trick play -- the "hideout fumblerooski" (aka the "Annexation of Puerto Rico"). They added a new wrinkle on the play as the lineman remained standing, but were pointing out coverages/assignments what have you, then held that pose as the "set position".

This, however, meant that all of their hands/arms were encroaching into the neutral zone at the snap -- correct?

Gifv of play here

[Kalle]

It isn't a fumblerooski as the ball never hits the ground, so it isn't immediately illegal (planned loose ball in the vicinity of the snapper). Rule 7-1-3-c-ex2 allows team A players to break the plane of their restraining line by pointing at the opponents (only in SKF). Rule 7-1-4 doesn't add a restriction, so I assume that you can point at the snap, too (again, only in SKF). #44 lines up legally as a back so he may receive the hand-to-hand snap. Thus, with pointing, illegal, without pointing, legal.

[ncwingman]

The only aspect of the play that I would suspect isn't legal is the entire offensive line lining up in the neutral zone (and maybe... maybe... arguing that they weren't actually set for a whole second, but that's more nitpicky). Nothing else even gives me pause.

[jpgc99]

Anybody consider that a runner simulating placing knee on the ground?

[The Roamin' Umpire]

I don't think anyone would flag this as a neutral zone infraction if the O-linemen moved from here to a more typical set position, so I don't think we should have a flag for that. Guys point from a set position in a way that breaks the NZ all the time; again, this doesn't draw a flag.

I also wouldn't consider that simulating taking a knee. He's not trying to look like he's taking a knee; he's trying to (and succeeding at!) hiding behind the O-line.

I would also say there's enough of a set that I wouldn't flag it; again, the timing is similar enough to what I've seen on non-trick plays. If you want to argue that a trick play needs to hew closer to the book than a "normal" play, that's an argument I can buy.

I'm not saying it's definitely legal - I don't know the college rules well enough to be certain. But nothing discussed in this thread so far makes me believe a flag should have been thrown or that the play should have been blown dead.

[hefnerjm]

Arkansas did a very similar play several years ago with Guz Malzahn as the o-coordinator.  Didnt get the headline b/c it wasnt a TD play....but as they say, there is nothing new under the sun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDFej7LGBu0

[BrendanP]

Anybody consider that a runner simulating placing knee on the ground?

That's the first thing that came to mind. The end zone angle shows that he wasn't down, but the press box cam sure looked like he had the ball with his knee on the ground.

[ncwingman]

I don't think anyone would flag this as a neutral zone infraction if the O-linemen moved from here to a more typical set position, so I don't think we should have a flag for that. Guys point from a set position in a way that breaks the NZ all the time; again, this doesn't draw a flag.

You're right that encroachment is not a foul since players can "get back" before the snap -- but they didn't. They were still in the neutral zone (and maybe beyond it) at the snap since they were holding that pose.

It's not a foul for pointing, it's a foul because they were still pointing at the snap.

[jpgc99]

You're right that encroachment is not a foul since players can "get back" before the snap -- but they didn't. They were still in the neutral zone (and maybe beyond it) at the snap since they were holding that pose.

It's not a foul for pointing, it's a foul because they were still pointing at the snap.

Encroachment provisions begin when the snapper places his hand on the ball.  Offensive players are not allowed to "get back before the snap".  That only applies to defensive offsides, in cases when there is no contact or unabated to QB.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Encroachment provisions begin when the snapper places his hand on the ball.  Offensive players are not allowed to "get back before the snap".  That only applies to defensive offsides, in cases when there is no contact or unabated to QB.

Technically correct, but in practice incorrect.  We have never considered offensive linemen, including the snapper, who are "pointing out" a player to be blocked as encroaching even though they frequently are (hands and arms in the NZ), but they must be out of the NZ at the snap.  I can't remember seeing a play with a player still with his arm extended into the NZ at the snap much less the entire line with their arms extended like this.  I would think this should have drawn a flag.  Maybe we'll see this in a future CFO video?

[Kalle]

Technically correct, but in practice incorrect.  We have never considered offensive linemen, including the snapper, who are "pointing out" a player to be blocked as encroaching even though they frequently are (hands and arms in the NZ), but they must be out of the NZ at the snap.

Do players point out assignments on non-SKF downs in your area? I haven't seen it. Plus, even if you don't flag a small technicality on a normal down, in a trick play you better dot every i and cross every t.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Have seen this, pointing out player(s) to be blocked, prior to the snap on multiple downs (not just 4th down).  And I agree that on trick plays we should hold teams close to the 100% gold standard.

[bricord]

Did anyone think the hide out guy might have been in no mans land with the QB? Legal?

[Kalle]

Did anyone think the hide out guy might have been in no mans land with the QB? Legal?

The way I see it he is fully behind all linemen so he is a legal back.

[jpgc99]

Technically correct, but in practice incorrect.  We have never considered offensive linemen, including the snapper, who are "pointing out" a player to be blocked as encroaching even though they frequently are (hands and arms in the NZ), but they must be out of the NZ at the snap.  I can't remember seeing a play with a player still with his arm extended into the NZ at the snap much less the entire line with their arms extended like this.  I would think this should have drawn a flag.  Maybe we'll see this in a future CFO video?

I agree.  I wasn't suggesting that this should have been flagged, although RR has said that trick plays should adhere as close to the rules as possible.  I would not flag ENC on this play, but I'm still not sure if I think the runner simulated taking a knee.  Since I'm not sure, I wouldn't blow my whistle if I saw it in a game, but watching it on replay makes me wonder...

I was just pointing out that the rules do not allow for the offense to "get back" prior to the snap.  The defense does have this ability under the rules, so it might have been confusing to others reading the initial post.

[Kalle]

I would not flag ENC on this play, but I'm still not sure if I think the runner simulated taking a knee.  Since I'm not sure, I wouldn't blow my whistle if I saw it in a game, but watching it on replay makes me wonder...

I don't think you can simulate taking a knee if the opponents don't see you.

[BlindZebra]

Plain and simple, you throw anything on this you will have a very short collegiate career.  The pointing is nothing, the "simulated knee" is nothing, there is nothing.  Trick plays must be according to rule, but use common sense when applying those rules to trick plays.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Plain and simple, you throw anything on this you will have a very short collegiate career.  The pointing is nothing, the "simulated knee" is nothing, there is nothing.  Trick plays must be according to rule, but use common sense when applying those rules to trick plays.

Interesting viewpoint given that RR has repeatedly stressed that trick plays should be strictly by the book.

With all team A linemen with extended arms pointing (to whom they are going to block?) and in what would normally be a position prior to taking 3-point stances it's pretty clear that they are not in a normal football position.  IMO they are attempting to make it clear that the snap is not imminent, and in fact are all in the NZ.  That doesn't seem even close to "by the book" to me?

[Dakota Dan]

Plain and simple, you throw anything on this you will have a very short collegiate career.  The pointing is nothing, the "simulated knee" is nothing, there is nothing.  Trick plays must be according to rule, but use common sense when applying those rules to trick plays.

Well said, BlindZebra! .... do not go looking to find stuff (I have heard the term "picking boogers") ... plain and simple, this is a clean play