(Scrimmage Kick) Touchdown, Touchback....lost my mind

[sirhoagy]

I think I've finally lost my mind.  I watched a *high school* game (using Federation rules, not NCAA) where this happened:

K punts the ball.  R1 is lined up at his 2-yard line to receive.  R1 muffs (doesn't ever possess) the ball, which then hits the ground and rolls into the end zone.
Two or three members of K come running down and dive on the ball.  Ball is in the EZ clearly, no argument.  RULING: Touchdown.

Association meeting said this ruling was wrong; it is a touchback because the ball was still a kick and broke the plane of the goal line which caused the ball to become dead immediately.  R's ball, 1st and 10 at their 20 yard line (Federation rule)

College rule says, if that happens, it's a touch*down* not a touch*back*


I think, as I've said, my mind is going on me as I thought the HS rule that I saw on the video was correct but the rulebook says, nope, touch*back* and college says touch*down*


Anything I'm missing here??

EDIT: Under Federation rule, if R had secured possession and *then* fumbled into the end zone, this would be a touchdown.  NCAA doesn't differentiate between a muff and securing possession-->fumble-->ball rolling into EZ. 

[JasonTX]

I can't tell you what Federation rules.  Under NCAA rules this is a Touchdown.

[ElvisLives]

Like JasonTx, I really know nothing about Federation rules, but, over the years, I have 'heard' enough to know that this is one of the most distinct differences between NCAA and Fed rules.  Verify with the Fed guys, but I believe their rules make any ball loose from legal kick that breaks the plane of a B's goal line an instant touchback (or, I suppose, it can then only score a FG, if from a legal scrimmage kick).  But, for NCAA a legally kicked ball remains alive until it touches the ground or something (like a goal) beyond B's goal line, and has not been touched by B prior to that.

Robert

[ljudge]

In whatever level you work always go back to rule #2 first.  You need to know the status of the ball, whether it's still a "kick" or has it become a running play.  Until the ball is legally possessed by either team you have a kick.  Once it becomes possessed by B it becomes a running play and remains live.  If possessed by A it becomes a dead ball because it's a kick and A (K - fed terminology) cannot advance a kick.  In fed, balls with the status of a "kick" that break the plane of R's goal line automatically become a touchback at that instant it crosses whether they had been either touched or muffed by either team.

In NCAA an untouched kick by B is a touchback once either touches the ground the ground in the endzone or goes out of bounds (e.g. touches pylon or OOB beyond the sideline in the EZ).  If touched by B prior to crossing the goal line the ball remains alive and can be possessed by either team.  If possessed by A it becomes a TD.  If possessed by B he may advance or just fall on the ball for a touchback.  (Note if B muffs at the 2 yardline and the ball rolls into the EZ where team B simply falls on the ball it is a touchback NOT a safety)

Corrections welcome. 

[ElvisLives]

"If touched by B prior to crossing the goal line the ball remains alive..."

Actually, if the ball is touched by B prior to touching the ground on or beyond B's goal line, the ball remains alive, and may be legally caught or recovered by either team.
For the purposes of this rule, the goal line is somewhat immaterial.  What is important is if B touches the ball prior to the ball (loose from a legal kick) touching the ground in their end zone, whether that touching is in the field of play or in the end zone.

Robert

[bossman72]

Touchback in NFHS
Touchdown in NCAA

[NVFOA_Ump]

Bossman is correct.  Under NFHS rules all kicks retain the status of kick when touched by either team.  That status does not change until possession and control is established by a player.  In NFHS when a kick crosses the plane of the EZ (doesn't have to touch the ground) it is dead by rule and we should have an immediate whistle followed by the touchback signal.  If the kick was caught in the field of play, or picked up after a muff and possessed while still in the field play, then fumbled into the EZ, it would remain live.

[ljudge]

"If touched by B prior to crossing the goal line the ball remains alive..."

Actually, if the ball is touched by B prior to touching the ground on or beyond B's goal line, the ball remains alive, and may be legally caught or recovered by either team.


Robert

Oops.  Good catch.  I knew that.  I proofread about 3 times and was certain I missed a key point.

[ElvisLives]

Oops.  Good catch.  I knew that.  I proofread about 3 times and was certain I missed a key point.

That's why we are "crews," and not individuals.  When one of us has a "moment," someone else will step up and keep us on track.  Happens to all of us, and far too frequently.  Anybody happen to see the NFL game that Ed Hochuli was working yesterday?  Blocked punt was headed to the back of the end zone when a defensive player attempted to recover just inside the end line.  This player slid/rolled across the end line, with the ball.  After some discussion, Ed announced that the defensive player did not have possession before touching the end line, and the result of the play was a TOUCHBACK.  Well, Ed is far more eminently qualified to rule on this than me, and I certainly don't know NFL rules, so I first thought, "Well, that's different than NCAA rules; that's a safety (2 points for B) in NCAA."  Honestly, I was pretty certain it was a safety in the NFL, too.   So, I was "urging" Ed to correct the call to a safety.  More discussion.  Still a touchback.  Hmmm.  Still "urging" Ed to correct this to a safety (so was Dean Blandino, on TV).  More discussion, and finally, Ed announces that the result of the play is a safety.  Whew.  Then, I think it went to replay to check to see if the defensive player had possession before he touched the end line.  Ruling of safety "stood."

The point is that, we are humans, and even the best have moments.  But, the 'crew' came together to get the call correct.  That's all that matters.  Good for Ed and his crew.     

[Kalle]

Anybody happen to see the NFL game that Ed Hochuli was working yesterday?

I, too, was screaming for a safety (never mind that I'm a Bears fan) and waiting to see if the crew gets it right. Which they eventually did. Rule problems are always crew problems, and here a good crew did what needs to be done: it doesn't matter if you take your time, it only matters if you get it right at the end.

[goodgrr]

People can see that safety play on the highlights if they didn't catch the game:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000835700/Titans-vs-Bears-highlights-Preseason-Week-3

Starts at 13 seconds in.