Author Topic: Impetus  (Read 5396 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JDM

  • *
  • Posts: 354
  • FAN REACTION: +5/-4
Impetus
« on: May 29, 2024, 01:41:14 PM »
From the archives of the Rom Gilbert:

2nd and 6 on B's 16. B44 intercepts A17's forward pass in B's end zone, fumbles while still in B's end zone and the ball rolls into the field of play. A89 bats the ball into B's zone and out of bounds.

Ruling?

Online dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 1706
  • FAN REACTION: +38/-12
  • Exceed the standard... or don't do the job
Re: Impetus
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2024, 03:13:10 PM »
I'll take a stab at it, I'm not 100% confident in my answer but I've tried to provide rationalization.

B intercepts the ball with clean hands. A89’s bat places new impetus on the ball.  Team A commits a batting foul (10 yards), which causes the ball to go out of the EZ. Since A’s impetus is the force that caused the ball to go out in the EZ, A is responsible for it being there, which results in a safety for Team B. A’s fouls is not of the 15-yard variety so it is declined by rule.

8-5-1-a: ARTICLE 1. It is a safety when:
a.   The ball becomes dead out of bounds behind a goal line, except from an incomplete forward pass, or becomes dead in the possession of a player on, above or behind their own goal line, or becomes dead by rule, and the defending team is responsible for the ball being there.

In this play the defending team is A, since the turnover occurred with clean hands, and B had possession; therefore A is responsible for the ball going OOB in the EZ.

Online ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 4457
  • FAN REACTION: +187/-187
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Impetus
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2024, 04:17:16 PM »
I'll take a stab at it, I'm not 100% confident in my answer but I've tried to provide rationalization.

B intercepts the ball with clean hands. A89’s bat places new impetus on the ball.  Team A commits a batting foul (10 yards), which causes the ball to go out of the EZ. Since A’s impetus is the force that caused the ball to go out in the EZ, A is responsible for it being there, which results in a safety for Team B. A’s fouls is not of the 15-yard variety so it is declined by rule.

8-5-1-a: ARTICLE 1. It is a safety when:
a.   The ball becomes dead out of bounds behind a goal line, except from an incomplete forward pass, or becomes dead in the possession of a player on, above or behind their own goal line, or becomes dead by rule, and the defending team is responsible for the ball being there.

In this play the defending team is A, since the turnover occurred with clean hands, and B had possession; therefore A is responsible for the ball going OOB in the EZ.

Whoa, Bobby. I think you have your directions and end zones confused. Which team is responsible for the ball being behind B's goal line when it became dead?

Online ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 4457
  • FAN REACTION: +187/-187
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Impetus
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2024, 10:26:54 PM »
The defending team is always the team that is defending either specific goal line, whether that team is currently the offensive team or the defensive team. When A89 batted the ball forward, that is a foul for illegal batting, and it also provides the impetus that caused the ball to become dead behind B’s goal line. The natural result of the down is a touchback, B, 1/10, B-20. Then the illegal batting has to be considered, and the Basic Spot when a foul occurs AFTER a change of team possession in the end zone, and the result of the play is a touchback, is the succeeding spot, i.e., the B-20. The 10-yard penalty for the illegal batting will then take the ball to the B-30, 1/10 for B. The play clock is set to 25 seconds, and will start on the referee’s signal. The game clock will start on the snap.

Online dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 1706
  • FAN REACTION: +38/-12
  • Exceed the standard... or don't do the job
Re: Impetus
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2024, 07:44:19 AM »
ah that makes sense - I was thinking of the defending team being whoever was not in possession of the ball.

Online ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 4457
  • FAN REACTION: +187/-187
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Impetus
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2024, 09:01:38 AM »
ah that makes sense - I was thinking of the defending team being whoever was not in possession of the ball.

I could tell.
Every team is defending their goal line at all times, whether, at any given moment, they are the offensive team, or the defensive team.
A player of a either team - whether his team is the offensive team or the defensive team at any moment - can provide the impetus that causes the ball to become dead behind either goal line. In the given example, a Team A player - on defense at that moment - imparted the impetus that caused the ball to travel from the field of play across B's goal line and out of bounds. (Note that Team B was still in team possession at that moment, so they were on offense, even though the ball was loose). No different than a kickoff or a punt that becomes dead in, or goes OB at, the opponent's end zone, the result is a touchback.

One of the biggest problems for newer officials is learning to stop looking at the game like a player or a coach (or a spectator). When a team intercepts a pass and is returning the ball, the players, coaches, and most spectators of the intercepting team still see their players as "defense," even though they are now, officially, on offense. I don't say that to be insulting or disparaging to those folks, only to point out that we, as officials, have to see and think from a pure rules perspective, and recognize which team is on offense and which team is on defense at any given moment during a down. I know I'm being patronizing, here (please forgive me), but that's the whole point of the rules using 'Team A' and 'Team B' to designate the teams, rather than 'offense' or 'defense.' As a referee, we have to be able to recognize that fact, very much in real time, when we are making penalty announcements, when there has been a change of team possession during the down. In those cases, we shouldn't use 'offense' or 'defense.' Rather, we should use, 'passing team,' 'fumbling team, 'return team,' 'Michigan State,' etc.  (Never use a team color or mascot name. NEVER.) In the given example, Team A was the defense at the time of the foul. If you announced them as the 'defense,' you would be absolutely correct, officially, but you would confuse everybody except the other guys on your crew. In this case, you would really need to use the team names, like, "Illegal batting; number 89; Texas A&M. That's a 10-yard penalty; first down; Washington State."  In this specific case, everybody (except your crew) will still be confused, but there is nothing you can do about that, without getting into an impromptu rules seminar. But, if you can think to add a short explanation of the result of the down, it could help with credibility. Like:
"The ball was batted by Texas A&M across Washington States's goal line and out of bounds; therefore, the result of the down is a touchback. The batting of the ball by number 89, Texas A&M, was illegal. That's a 10-yard penalty; first down; Washington State."

Thanks for giving me an opportunity to waste some time at work this morning. :D

Offline JDM

  • *
  • Posts: 354
  • FAN REACTION: +5/-4
Re: Impetus
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2024, 11:57:36 AM »
The defending team is always the team that is defending either specific goal line, whether that team is currently the offensive team or the defensive team. When A89 batted the ball forward, that is a foul for illegal batting, and it also provides the impetus that caused the ball to become dead behind B’s goal line. The natural result of the down is a touchback, B, 1/10, B-20. Then the illegal batting has to be considered, and the Basic Spot when a foul occurs AFTER a change of team possession in the end zone, and the result of the play is a touchback, is the succeeding spot, i.e., the B-20. The 10-yard penalty for the illegal batting will then take the ball to the B-30, 1/10 for B. The play clock is set to 25 seconds, and will start on the referee’s signal. The game clock will start on the snap.

Spot on, Robert. Jibes perfectly w/Rom's ruling:
B 1/10 B-30. A89 provided the relevant impetus. A89 fouled after a change of team possession in the end zone and the result of the play is a touchback. Reference: 2009 NCAA Play Situations #1, Play #7. (10-2-2-d-2-a)

Online Legacy Zebra

  • *
  • Posts: 1029
  • FAN REACTION: +56/-11
Re: Impetus
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2024, 02:09:24 PM »
Now that we’ve gotten the actual play straightened out, let’s go back to this comment:
Quote
A’s fouls is not of the 15-yard variety so it is declined by rule.

Let’s assume this play happened at the other end of the field and somehow we did have a safety. It is irrelevant what type of foul Team A commits. Safeties are not like tries, field goals, and touchdowns. Personal and unsportsmanlike conduct fouls can’t carryover to the succeeding free kick. You’ll note that, not only does 10-2-5 not include safeties in its list, it also specifies that fouls on TDs, FGs, and tries can be enforced on the succeeding *kickoff*. The kick after a safety is not a kickoff. The only fouls that can be enforced on the succeeding free kick for a safety are dead ball fouls. However, they are also not declined by rule like on a touchdown. The opposing team still gets an option.

1/10 @ A-5. QB A11 is sacked in the end zone. Team A is flagged for a chop block at the A-2. Result: Safety, free kick from A-20. The penalty does not carry over.


3/20 @ A-10, Team B leads 21-17 late in the 4th quarter. A11 is sacked in the end zone. A77 is flagged for holding at the A-2. Team B’s coach may want to avoid the possibility of an onside kick. So he may want to accept the penalty and replay 3rd down from the A-5.

Online dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 1706
  • FAN REACTION: +38/-12
  • Exceed the standard... or don't do the job
Re: Impetus
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2024, 03:00:54 PM »
Thanks - I was thinking of 10-2-5-a-1, and just forgot that safeties were not included there.  Almost every time we have to use that rule, it doesn't involve a safety, so I just overlooked it.

And I don't think this is at all patronizing, Elvis -it's real easy to sit back and just not answer because you don't want to be wrong in public. I responded publicly, so I am more than willing to take blame when I make mistakes - that is how I hold myself accountable to get better.