Illegal substitution vs illegal participation

[dch]

1st and 10 after a change of possession (mass substitutions).   
The defense has 12 players on the field when A breaks the huddle and comes to the line.  No one is attempting to leave the field.
At the snap it will be a flag on B for illegal participation.  Is there a rule based way to call a 5 yd illegal substitution foul on B prior to the snap?
What if it was A that had 12 players in the formation prior to the snap?

[NVFOA_Ump]

1st and 10 after a change of possession (mass substitutions).   
The defense has 12 players on the field when A breaks the huddle and comes to the line.  No one is attempting to leave the field.
At the snap it will be a flag on B for illegal participation.  Is there a rule based way to call a 5 yd illegal substitution foul on B prior to the snap?
What if it was A that had 12 players in the formation prior to the snap?

If B has 12 players in formation for that length of time, we have a blow and throw dead ball foul Illegal Substitution.  Same for A. See Rule 3, Section 7, Articles 1 thru 6 also associated case plays.

[sj]

NVump is correct. The rule that backs the idea behind blowing it dead and penalizing before the snap would have to do with the 12th player being in the formation for longer than three seconds and had not left.

[VALJ]

A replaced player did not leave the field within 3 seconds of being replaced. 3-7-1. 

[CalhounLJ]

If B has 12 players in formation for that length of time, we have a blow and throw dead ball foul Illegal Substitution.  Same for A. See Rule 3, Section 7, Articles 1 thru 6 also associated case plays.

Agree completely.

[Fatso]

3 second rule, kill it.

[NVFOA_Ump]

3 second rule, kill it.

As the R or the U, I've adopted a simple "method" over the years that is to count the offense as they are getting into formation.  If I have 12 I count a 2nd time. If still 12, Ive got the blow & throw since the time it takes me to count twice is well over the 3 seconds defined in the rules.

[jason]

Devil's Advocate here:

Is it entirely possible that a defense in this scenario has 12 on the field, and one of those 12 don't realize they are a replaced player because the substitute didn't adequately inform his teammate?

The question is obviously rhetorical because it happens numerous times in just about every game, especially at a sub-varsity level. And I fully realize the "otherwise becomes a player"-verbiage.

To the original question, philosophically it's better to kill it and throw a 5-yarder for Illegal Substitution in order to avoid the potential 15-yard Illegal Participation. It's worth noting, however, that just because B has 12 on the field and the ball is snapped doesn't mean it's automatically Illegal Participation. A Live-Ball Illegal Substitution is still possible provided one of those 12 is not participating.

[CalhounLJ]

Devil's Advocate here:

Is it entirely possible that a defense in this scenario has 12 on the field, and one of those 12 don't realize they are a replaced player because the substitute didn't adequately inform his teammate?

The question is obviously rhetorical because it happens numerous times in just about every game, especially at a sub-varsity level. And I fully realize the "otherwise becomes a player"-verbiage.

To the original question, philosophically it's better to kill it and throw a 5-yarder for Illegal Substitution in order to avoid the potential 15-yard Illegal Participation. It's worth noting, however, that just because B has 12 on the field and the ball is snapped doesn't mean it's automatically Illegal Participation. A Live-Ball Illegal Substitution is still possible provided one of those 12 is not participating.

Disagree. To be in formation at the snap is considered participating.
Think about this. An in shotgun, 12 on defense in formation. Qb spikes the ball immediately after the snap. While the Defensive line and maybe linebackers engaged, none of the corners or safeties moved. Did they participate in that down?

[bama_stripes]

Disagree. To be in formation at the snap is considered participating.

Concur.  If the extra player is trying to get off but doesn’t, I’m fine with a live-ball illegal substitution foul.  Otherwise, the defense deserves the big walkoff.

[lawdog]

Concur.  If the extra player is trying to get off but doesn’t, I’m fine with a live-ball illegal substitution foul.  Otherwise, the defense deserves the big walkoff.

Agree and Disagree.  The play should be shut down before the snap to avoid the big 15.  But if we fail to do that, and they are on the field when snapped, ya then we have to go with the 15.

[jason]

Disagree. To be in formation at the snap is considered participating.
Think about this. An in shotgun, 12 on defense in formation. Qb spikes the ball immediately after the snap. While the Defensive line and maybe linebackers engaged, none of the corners or safeties moved. Did they participate in that down?

My original reply didn't indicate that they were in formation. They were in confusion. Philosophically, the 3-second timeline is a poor substitution for game management. Otherwise, y'all must have a bunch of sub-varsity illegal substitution calls in your games.

As for your gotcha scenario, it's illegal participation, and the offensive coach who called that to get the illegal participation should go play the lottery after the game.

[jason]

Agree and Disagree.  The play should be shut down before the snap to avoid the big 15.  But if we fail to do that, and they are on the field when snapped, ya then we have to go with the 15.

Not sure how you're saying this. There is literally a live ball illegal substitution for when there are 12 on the field and one of them is trying to get off. The scenario is not binary.

12 on & nobody leaving = IP
12 on & somebody leaving (within reason) = LB IS
11 on = legal

[Fatso]

12 on & nobody leaving = IP

That's illegal sub, not IP.    (3-7-1)

[lawdog]

Not sure how you're saying this. There is literally a live ball illegal substitution for when there are 12 on the field and one of them is trying to get off. The scenario is not binary.

12 on & nobody leaving = IP
12 on & somebody leaving (within reason) = LB IS
11 on = legal

Yes if they are close to getting off its subs.  But if he just figures it out and hes at midfield you can't go there.  That's only gonna work for a guy who's almost off.  Not someone in the middle of the field.

Also, the only part I was disagreeing with is letting them snap and throwing for 15. Don't do that.

[CalhounLJ]

My original reply didn't indicate that they were in formation. They were in confusion. Philosophically, the 3-second timeline is a poor substitution for game management. Otherwise, y'all must have a bunch of sub-varsity illegal substitution calls in your games.

As for your gotcha scenario, it's illegal participation, and the offensive coach who called that to get the illegal participation should go play the lottery after the game.

It wasn't a gotcha scenario, and I wasn't suggesting the offensive coach did that to get illegal participation. It happens regularly when A is trying to stop the clock. My point was that just because the safeties and corners didn't "move to participate" in the play didn't mean they were not participating at the snap. Which argues against your position that just being on the field in formation at the snap doesn't warrant IP. The fact that they were in the defensive formation at the snap fits the definition of participating at the snap. Whether it's philosophical or not is a moot point. It's black and white in the rulebook. I also understand leniency in sub-varsity games. That's why we are diligent to blow and throw an IS instead of allowing it to escalate into an IP.

[jason]

Yes if they are close to getting off its subs.  But if he just figures it out and hes at midfield you can't go there.  That's only gonna work for a guy who's almost off.  Not someone in the middle of the field.

Also, the only part I was disagreeing with is letting them snap and throwing for 15. Don't do that.

Agree. That's my comment "within reason." I know there are philosophical guidelines in different areas. I've heard "under the hash and hauling a** as a funny way of saying it. I've also heard 2-steps as a general guideline.

[jason]

That's illegal sub, not IP.    (3-7-1)

I think you must be misinterpreting.

12 players on and nobody leaving is definitely IP.

[CalhounLJ]

I think you must be misinterpreting.

12 players on and nobody leaving is definitely IP.

It's not IP until the ball is snapped. If you have 12 in formation with nobody leaving and you catch it before the snap, it's IS.

[Fatso]

I think you must be misinterpreting.

12 players on and nobody leaving is definitely IP.

It's IS not IP.  (rule 3-7-1 "replaced players shall begin to leave the field within 3 seconds".  Penalty: Illegal substitution 5 yards, dead ball foul).

[Ralph Damren]

Remember guys, big ole' Bubba doesn't have to be off the field in 3 seconds, he just needs to start his journey to the sidelines WITHIN 3"after he's been informed he 's no longer needed.
IF he hasn't completed his travels to the sideline before the ball is snapped, we have a live ball IS with previous spot enforcement.

[bama_stripes]

Remember guys, big ole' Bubba doesn't have to be off the field in 3 seconds, he just needs to start his journey to the sidelines WITHIN 3"after he's been informed he 's no longer needed.
IF he hasn't completed his travels to the sideline before the ball is snapped, we have a live ball IP with previous spot enforcement.

Even though he clearly doesn’t participate?  That’s gonna be IS in my game.

[Ralph Damren]

Even though he clearly doesn’t participate?  That’s gonna be IS in my game.

I intended IS but my fingers typed IP  --That happens sometimes when you're left handed