Let’s talk about this

[ElvisLives]

This question (paraphrased) appeared on a rules study forum recently. This is just for academic discussion, so let’s don’t let judgment get involved here. Stick to the actual rule language.

2/20, A-40, 6:00 (2), A=7, B=7.
A86 catches a legal forward pass at the A-45, and is tackled and the ball becomes dead at that spot. Before the pass was released, A68 blocked B79 below the waist at the A-42.

Ruling: A, 2/35, A-25, ready (25).
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What foul(s) - if any - do we see here?

Obviously, the author was thinking of a simple Illegal Block Below the waist. If we only think that, OK, the Basic Spot (during a legal forward pass play) for that foul is the Previous Spot. The 15-yard penalty from the Previous Spot takes the ball back to the A-20, and the down is repeated.

Let’s think about two things:

1) If there is nothing else to consider, is this penalty fair to Team A? If this had been a running play (only), ending at the same yard line, the Basic Spot would have been the end of A86’s run, and the penalty would have been penalized at the Spot of the Foul (instead of the Previous Spot). Yes, only two yards different, but why? If the pass is completed beyond the NZ, why can’t the end of the pass play be the Basic Spot (equal to the end of the related run)? Then the result of the penalty would be the same as - and consistent with - a running play. That actually simplifies the rules. Something to think about.

2) Is there another foul to consider? So, what is it when any Team A player initiates a block on an opponent more than 1-yard beyond the NZ during a legal forward pass play in which the pass crosses the NZ? (Remember, a pass play starts at the snap, and ends when the pass is complete, intercepted, or incomplete.)  Hmm. That’s what happened in this down. We wouldn’t let an eligible receiver “pick off” a defender to let another receiver get open to catch a pass well away from the spot where the ‘pick’ occurred? Shouldn’t we be thinking about the possibility of OPI?

Have at it. This is a party-free environment. All points of view welcome. 

[Kalle]

If penalties for fouls during a completed forward pass play would have the end of the run as the basic spot, this would make pass interference penalties weird.

1/10 A-20. A11 throws a legal forward pass towards A-50 where A99 and B98 are competing for the ball with B98 being in a good position to make an interception.

a) A99 pushes B98 in the back preventing B98 from catching the ball and catches the ball himself. A99 is downed at B-45.

b) A99 pushes B98 in the back preventing B98 from catching the ball. The pass falls to the ground incomplete.

Would it be a fair result in a) to have A 1/10 A-35? I think not, so at least OPI should still be a previous spot enforcement. I think this would be more complicated than it currently is with no major benefits.

[dammitbobby]

What if there was a rules statement that said something to the effect of, 'If the penalty enforcement would leave the ball in a more advantageous position for the fouling team than when the play began, the previous spot shall become the enforcement spot.'

[bossman72]

Basic spots are based on gaining yards illegally after the time of the foul.

The foul was before the pass.  If we treated it like a run play, you've allowed the offense to pass the ball down field and gain passing yardage illegally by fouling before it.  Therefore, your basic spot is based on the previous spot for everything that happens before the catch.
That's why another run play starts when the ball is caught.  If you didn't foul before the catch, you've gained those yards legally.  Now we base everything on what happens on this subsequent run play.

Run play enforcement is basically saying, anything you gained up to the spot of the foul is yours and we will penalize from the end of your run.  If you run past the spot of the foul, we're not going to give you extra yardage.  We'll penalize you from the spot of your foul.

[ElvisLives]

If penalties for fouls during a completed forward pass play would have the end of the run as the basic spot, this would make pass interference penalties weird.

1/10 A-20. A11 throws a legal forward pass towards A-50 where A99 and B98 are competing for the ball with B98 being in a good position to make an interception.

a) A99 pushes B98 in the back preventing B98 from catching the ball and catches the ball himself. A99 is downed at B-45.

b) A99 pushes B98 in the back preventing B98 from catching the ball. The pass falls to the ground incomplete.

Would it be a fair result in a) to have A 1/10 A-35? I think not, so at least OPI should still be a previous spot enforcement. I think this would be more complicated than it currently is with no major benefits.

Kalle, I’m only talking about Basic Spot/3 & 1 enforcement fouls. As you know, DPI and OPI have specific enforcements, by rule, and are not dependent upon any other action. So, in your examples, the OPI foul would still be enforced at the previous spot.
Honestly, I can’t envision a Team A contact foul beyond the NZ during a legal forward pass play that we wouldn’t classify as OPI. That was why I raised that as the second part of this discussion. But, if Shaw were to say that, for example, a BBW foul beyond the NZ in the left side zone during a pass play that is completed in the right side zone should NOT be treated as OPI, but strictly as BBW, I can’t see how that is different than the same BBW foul during a running play. During a running play, if the foul occurs well beyond the end of the run, it is still a foul, even though it probably didn’t help the team in possession gain any yards. So, penalizing from the end of the run is fair. But, the same thing during a pass play would go back to the previous spot to be penalized. (But, like I said, I can’t imagine a Team A contact foul beyond the NZ during a legal forward pass play that crosses the NZ that we wouldn’t consider OPI.)
This is just, what I think, is a quirk in the rules that creates an unfair situation for Team A, but ONLY if we can consider contact fouls by Team A beyond the NZ during a legal forward pass play that crosses the NZ to NOT be OPI. So, when this scenario was presented on a quiz, with the answer as being a non-OPI foul that is penalized at the previous spot, it first made me wonder “how is this not OPI?” Then it made me realize, if this is going to be treated as a Basic Spot enforcement, Team A gets treated differently than if this had been a running play. Why?


Like I said, just an academic discussion, because I can’t really see such a foul happening that we wouldn’t consider OPI.

Mostly, I didn’t like seeing no activity on this site for several days, and just wanted to wake everybody up.