4th timeout Request

[busman]

Coach beleives it is 3rd down.  When he sends the play in, his huddle yells at him "It's 4th down"  He takes 5-6 seconds to process the information, then says "Give me a timeout" with about 10 seconds on the playclock.  H grants it, but R and U both look at each other and go Huh?.  When coach is told he has already used his three, he says "H told me I had one more."  Sure enough H admits he has. 

How would you handle it from here.

[bama_stripes]

Coach beleives it is 3rd down.  When he sends the play in, his huddle yells at him "It's 4th down"  He takes 5-6 seconds to process the information, then says "Give me a timeout" with about 10 seconds on the playclock.  H grants it, but R and U both look at each other and go Huh?.  When coach is told he has already used his three, he says "H told me I had one more."  Sure enough H admits he has. 

How would you handle it from here.

Immediately get both teams back onto the field and hit the RFP for 4th down.  H buys the first round after the game.

[Atlanta Blue]

Immediately get both teams back onto the field and hit the RFP for 4th down.  H buys the first round after the game.

Fine, except....

Do you reset the play clock?  (I think you have to).

 

[LarryW60]

Reset it?  The clock was stopped.  You mean run some seconds off?  How many?

IMHO (for what it's worth) H can't ever "grant" a timeout.  That's the White Hat's job.  H can stop the clock to let the White Hat know a team is requesting a timeout, but the White Hat can start the clock right back up once he knows why H stopped it if the team is out of timeouts.

I don't know about the first round after the game, either.  This sounds like a failure of the CREW to make sure everyone is on the same page regarding timeouts.  On any timeout, after we've marked our cards, we're visually verifying with each other what the current timout situation is.  If someone has something different, they come in and see who missed what.

[busman]

That's one of the problems.  He bought extra time to get his field goal unit on.  I don't think he could of gotten them on in 12 seconds.  He also admitted that he knew he had used three timeouts, but since the H told him had one he tried to take it.

[LarryW60]

Then you're still not messing with the game clock.  The issue was the 25-second clock and there's no real way to modify that one unless you invoke the White Hat's "God" rule.

[bama_stripes]

Fine, except....

Do you reset the play clock?  (I think you have to).

I don't think so.  Our objective is to have the situation as close as possible to where it was before the stoppage.

[AlUpstateNY]

Then you're still not messing with the game clock.  The issue was the 25-second clock and there's no real way to modify that one unless you invoke the White Hat's "God" rule.

Clearly, there is no specified resolution for this exact scenario stated within the rules, so it would seem we would be guided by NF: 1-1-6, "The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good sportsmanship, on any situation not specifically covered in the rules.  The referee's decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game."

Apparently the rulesmakers trust the judgment and character of referees to assess the situation and do what they think is best, and fair, for a particular situation.

[busman]

That's what I thought, so I used his statement "I know" when I tallied off the time outs and times they were called, that he willfully violated the rules and hit him with an USC penalty.  Obviously, I have had second thoughts or wouldn't have posted this here.

[Atlanta Blue]

That's what I thought, so I used his statement "I know" when I tallied off the time outs and times they were called, that he willfully violated the rules and hit him with an USC penalty.  Obviously, I have had second thoughts or wouldn't have posted this here.

A USC call?  He asked the H if he had a timeout left and the H said yes, so he called it.  It was the H that was wrong, not the coach.

And even if he didn't ask, it's up to the officials not to grant an extra timeout.  You ignore it.  As all of you have told me more than once, a coach REQUESTS a time out, but the officials GRANTS it (or not).  How is requesting a time out USC?  3-3-5 says if the coach requests an additional time out, the request shall be denied.  There is no penalty for the request.

A USC call seems WAY out of line here. 

[LarryW60]

Got to agree with AB here. A coach requesting a timeout they don't have is not a foul - even if he indicates he knew he didn't have any left.  The crew should have been aware that the team was out of timeouts and just ignored the fourth request.  FAIL on the crew.

[ppaltice]

I agree with AB.  This was a mistake by the crew and the crew has to eat the fact that they made an error that benefitted one team.  It is akin to an IW.  This was a crew mistake.

By Rule 3-5-5, a timeout request by a team that has used all of its permissable timeouts shall be denied.  The team can request a timeout by rule even if they do not have any left.  It is up to the crew to deny the timeout.

[VALJ]

A USC call seems WAY out of line here. 

As much as I hate agreeing with a coach , I'm with AB all the way.

Of course, AB hangs out here, so he's at least an honorary official in my book.

[NoVaBJ]

No USC under any circumstances--the team cannot be penalized for what is clearly a screwup on behalf of the crew.  Restart the game clock immediately upon discovery of the error, and do no permit the ball to be snapped without penalty if the players and coach don't get on or off appropriately before the snap.

I don't think there's any choice but to reset the delay of game clock, but restarting the game clock immediately upon discovering the error is the best one can do to mitigate this.