Horse Collar ? (video)

[TXMike]

Horse collar tackle?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOweYUdP1h4

[MJT]

Yes. You can see the hand is inside the jersey, and he buckles his legs with the immediate pull down.

[chymechowder]

tough one. regular speed first camera angle I thought so. on the replay though it looks like the defender might've only had the jersey on the shoulder without being inside the shirt collar.

the way the ball carrier went down was consistent with having been HCT'd, though, so I wouldnt fault someone who flagged it at regular speed.

[940AC]

No. Team B player never came inside the shoulder pads to bring Team A receiver down.

[El Macman]

No. Team B player never came inside the shoulder pads to bring Team A receiver down.

Not required to get inside the shoulder pads - either the jersey or the pads.

[Atlanta Blue]

I THINK he only has the jersey below the collar, but it's hard to tell.  But I did see a block in the back (which looks like it was flagged), and Illegal Helmet Contact (just over the 50) that wasn't called.

[GoodScout]

I don't see a HC. Pretty certain he just pulled jersey, and the back angle confirms it. Agree on the BIB and H2H calls by AB, although I'll bet the latter wasn't flagged.

[TXMike]

At the :36 - :37 mark of the video what part of the jersey does the tackler have?

[Atlanta Blue]

At the :36 - :37 mark of the video what part of the jersey does the tackler have?

At 36 seconds, it appears he has the sleeve, which if true, makes the tackle perfectly legal.

[clearwall]

When I saw it last night, I thought the same thing as I do now..initially HC popped up but after thinking about which direction he came down, it appears to be sideways instead of straigh back. Good non-call IMO

[TXMike]

2 screen shots

[Diablo]

Looks like the defender grabbed the inside of the jersey and pulled the ball carrier down post haste.
 

[El Macman]

Arguable, I suppose, but it certainly looks like he grabs the neck opening (collar) of the jersey.

Regardless, I'm detecting some folks may think that grabbing the neck opening of the shoulder pads is required - NO! Either the back/side of the neck opening of the jersey, or the back/side of the neck opening of the shoulder pads (or both) qualifies for the illegal horse collar foul (if the other elements are present).

[TXMike]

Maybe Fed requires something different?

[110]

With the usual north-of-the-border caveat, that's HC all the way. Our interps are inside collar at back/inside pads at back (check) , grasping motion (check) with runner's direction changed (check). I have three check-marks - and a flag.

[mbyron]

Maybe Fed requires something different?

Nope: NFHS is about the same. Grab jersey or pads and subsequently pull to the ground.

[cincybearcat]

if i remember right...fed is actually a little more cautious...doesn't require an "immedeate" pull down

[mbyron]

if i remember right...fed is actually a little more cautious...doesn't require an "immedeate" pull down

Rule was changed to delete that provision. It now says merely "subsequently."

[blindref757]

That is a foul.  The intent of the rule is player safety.  The weight of the defender is on the back of the ball carrier's shoulders.  Trying to discern shoulder pads or jersey is a nit pick that ignores the reason why this rule was instated.  Players getting broken legs, low back, and knee injuries from being jerked down from behind at full speed.  I would hope that every supervisor in the NCAA would support the play on this video as a foul.

[TXMike]

And would those same supervisors issue a downgrade if it were NOT flagged since it was NOT flagged here?

[Atlanta Blue]

I still don't see a hand on the collar.  Look at the first photo Mike posted.  The collar of the uniform is orange.  It's unbroken by a hand, which is on the green, which means the defender did not pull him down by the collar.

The rule had to be defined somewhere, not just pulling down a runner from behind.  The rulesmakers drew it at grabbing by the shoulder pads or inside of the collar.  This didn't qualify.  The more detail I see, the more I think the crew was right not to flag it.  And there SURE isn't enough visual evidence to show they were wrong.

[TXMike]

how about this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOYNzDwwsEc

[Atlanta Blue]

how about this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOYNzDwwsEc

Yes, I could sure see that as a HC foul.  There COULD be an argument that he grabbed the collar, but then released it, but I wouldn't buy it, I would expect a flag.

[blindref757]

And would those same supervisors issue a downgrade if it were NOT flagged since it was NOT flagged here?

When in doubt, shouldn't we err on the side of player safety?  I see both sides of the argument here, but I think that player safety is my primary objective.  I know some have the philosophy that not flagging things is the way to stay out of trouble and not insert yourself into the game unnecessarily.  I'd love to know what the supervisors do on a lot of the plays that you post that are controversial.  We could probably learn a lot from that.  I just wish that there was more uniformity between supervisors.  I know it's getting better, but it's a slow process.

[TXMike]

That is definitely (I think) the universal teaching...err on the side of safety.   I was just wondering if a guy  (like AtlBlue) said it definitely was NOT a foul, would the supervisor support that.