LSU live ball Unsportsmanlike

[NVFOA_Ump]

This one in my opinion qualifies as a taunt.  He glanced back, saw the closing B players, knew they couldn't reach him before the goal line, then turned directly toward them and did the "what's up" pose.  In my opinion that's well beyond a high step, or even a dive into the EZ - this one is right in team B's face.

[ABoselli]

Not all unsportsmanlike fouls are directed directly at opponents. Whether they are or not is immaterial.

If we start judging these acts in terms of who they are directed at or toward, I think we muddy more what is already murky water. If it were to become a requisite, then "Well, he high stepped in from the 10 but there weren't any opponents around, so it's not that egregious, I suppose" would be the possible rationale for passing on what is clearly outside the bounds of desired behavior.

I can't imagine my supervisor asking me, "Well, were there any Team B players around when he backed into the endzone?" if I were to justify a call by my crew.

Clearly I'm in the minority on this one but I just think we hurt ourselves by making this one the precedent we judge all other acts from this point forward. I would have liked the first major conference ruling to pack a little more wallop than that.

[TXMike]

More from Coach and player:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/ncaa/10/10/lsu.punter.loses.touchdown.ap/

LSU punter blames self for lost touchdown

BATON ROUGE, La. (AP) -- LSU punter Brad Wing has spent much of the past few days replaying in his mind what could have been his first touchdown, and the momentary, yet premature, expression of joy that led officials to flag him for taunting and take the points off the board.

"I do think there's a large amount of disrespect in taunting and that's not what I'm about," Wing said Monday. "I've never been anywhere near an end zone before. I was so excited and the emotion got the better of me ... and I made a silly mistake."

Wing was the first player to be flagged under a new NCAA rule aimed at further curbing unsportsmanlike celebrations by disallowing touchdowns if the scoring player celebrates before crossing the goal line.

It happened on Saturday during LSU's 41-11 victory over Florida on a play which, strangely enough, never would have happened if Wing had not shown the good judgment to take off when he saw the Gators retreating prematurely to set up blocking for the punt return.

Coach Les Miles had instructed Wing to always be aware of whether pressure was coming on a punt, and to run if a first down appeared likely. In this case, the whole left side of the field was open and Wing galloped 52 yards to the end zone. Shortly before reaching the goal line, he looked back to see how close his nearest pursuer was and spread his arms out for only a moment.

"When I knew I was about to score a touchdown for the LSU Tigers ... I dream about that every night, to be in your home stadium, running toward the student section, getting a touchdown and the emotion just set in, took over and I honestly don't even remember doing it," Wing said. "It was just crazy."

Wing grew up in Australia, playing Australian rules football, which requires precision kicking similar to a punt. He came to Baton Rouge as an exchange student, played for a high school football team and wound up staying in Louisiana to play for LSU.

The redshirt freshman has been a superb punter in his first college season, pinning opponents inside their own 10-yard line seven times this season and inside their own 20 10 times. But he had been eager to get his shot to tuck the ball away and take off downfield.

Wing was so pumped up when he reached the end zone that he jumped into the student section, then trotted back to the sideline to find Miles calling him over. Wing thought Miles was going to congratulate him for making the right decision to run instead of punt, but instead the coach pointed to the flag and made Wing watch the replay on the stadium video board.

"If I'm the official, I'm making that exact call," Miles said Monday. "How would you feel if that was your son playing for the opponent when that guy decides to taunt you? In reality, when you look at what Brad Wing did, I don't know if it was more joy than taunting and I'm not certain it was flagrant in any way, but that being said, when you're an official and you have to make the call ... I think he threw the flag at the right time."

Wing said he understands the logic behind the rule and does not blame the official for throwing the flag.

"It is a rule, so we have to abide by it and I did clearly break it," Wing said.

Wing said he has gotten a lot of support from fans who have told him the rule is a bad one and needs to be re-examined. He said that makes him feel a little better, as does the fact that LSU won by 30 points anyway. He only he worries that he may have blown his only chance to score.

"Teams see it now and I'm pretty sure that they're going to be looking out for it," Wing lamented. "I don't want to think that was a once-in-a-lifetime situation, but you know, it would be pretty rare if it happened again. But hopefully I can get into the end zone again. ... To get in and have it count - that would be great."

[TXMike]

Not all unsportsmanlike fouls are directed directly at opponents. Whether they are or not is immaterial.

Beg to differ.  Depending on what the player is doing it is very much material .  If the player simply fist pumps as he runs the last 5 yards, nothing    If he directs those pumps at an opponent that is a taunt and IS a foul.

Not all uns conducts have to be taunts, they can also be excessive celebration and qualify.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Not all unsportsmanlike fouls are directed directly at opponents. Whether they are or not is immaterial.

You're kidding right?  An unsportsmanlike action like this that is directed at an opponent is a taunt by definition - that's not "immaterial".  Any taunt demeans sportsmanship and the game.  If you want to substitute your judgment for the calling official's, and say that this was not a taunt, you're certainly entitled to that, but the calling official judged this to be taunting.

[ABoselli]

I'm not kidding and I'm not substituting my judgement for his - simply weighing in with my judgement, as you often do.

All taunts don't rise to the level of a flag. We've all had situations that our experience taught us was better dealt with without a flag. That, in my opinion, was one of those times.

Like I said, I know I'm in the minority. I keep looking at it and the entire act lasted from around the 10 yardline to almost the 8 (at full speed). Hardly anything gesture-wise that lasted less than a second. 

I would even venture to guess the pursuing Florida players didn't realize they had been 'taunted'. If that happens in my game Saturday, I'm not flagging it.

I'd like to see how magnanomous Coach Miles would be if that call were made in the waning seconds of the SEC or national championship game.

[zebra99]

I'm not kidding and I'm not substituting my judgement for his - simply weighing in with my judgement, as you often do.

All taunts don't rise to the level of a flag. We've all had situations that our experience taught us was better dealt with without a flag. That, in my opinion, was one of those times.

Like I said, I know I'm in the minority. I keep looking at it and the entire act lasted from around the 10 yardline to almost the 8 (at full speed). Hardly anything gesture-wise that lasted less than a second. 

I would even venture to guess the pursuing Florida players didn't realize they had been 'taunted'. If that happens in my game Saturday, I'm not flagging it.

I'd like to see how magnanomous Coach Miles would be if that call were made in the waning seconds of the SEC or national championship game.

It's a judgment call, guys, meaning by definition we will never agree 100%, especially on close ones.

Again, the player put his fate in the hands of another human being who is under directions which are not and can never be 100% precise.  The player made a decision, albeit spontaneous, and he has to live  with the consequences, which he and his coach have graciously done.

None of us can say exactly what we would have done because we weren't there on the field.  We now have the luxury of replay, dialogue, thinking time, etc. etc. but on the field we must react quickly.

Bottom line - if the player simply ran straight into the EZ, this discussion would not be taking place.

[RMR]

Does this help, where his intent is concerned?

[JRutledge]

If they just get into the end zone, then this would not be an issue. I think it was a decent call considering what he did and who he did it to.

Peace

[BNE-Ref]

I just thought it was hilarious. Why? We knew that somebody would get called for this before the season was over. But what were the odds that it would be a punter? And what were the odds that the punter would be from Australia? Maybe we need to brush up on our Australian rules football.

Oh, by the way. When the folks out there are beating up on the officials over this, remember that it was the coaches who wanted this rule and pushed for its passage.

I admit to laughing out loud at the commentators Australia reference.  Here, we interpret excessive celebrations much more loosely, that much is true, and doallow players to celebrate after a TD in a way that would certainly draw a flag in the States.

But taunting is a big no no.  And I'd say 8 out of 10 officials here would have flagged that one.

[TXMike]

This guy even went to the stands to interact with the fans, another no-no.  So even if he had not been flagged for the live ball foul, chances are he might have got it for the dead ball one.  I suspect since he had already been flagged the guys felt no need to drop a second one.

[Aussie-Zebra]

Interestingly his Father, David Wing was a punter for the Detroit Lions in 1990.

[FatboyHL]

This guy even went to the stands to interact with the fans, another no-no.  So even if he had not been flagged for the live ball foul, chances are he might have got it for the dead ball one.  I suspect since he had already been flagged the guys felt no need to drop a second one.

I am with you on this.  I think the interaction with the fans needs a little more attention.  That would have been a dead ball foul and added on to the live ball.  Would have been a tough sell in a tough environment in a big game with big emotions on a big play.  As officials we have to make judgement calls and the BJ made one in this case.  I would like to know if anything was brought up in the crew review about the fan interaction. 

[pgh guy]

Just because this call was supported in the face of the media by Mr. Shaw may not mean it went over well.  I applaud any super that does not throw his guys under the bus, but for all we know the calling official could have been cautioned to make these bigger. 

[TXMike]

After that public statement, if he wants to send a "quiet" message he will have to send it to his whole staff becuase all they know is what they have heard publicly.   And if he sends it to the whole staff, I am thinking we will hear about it

[Andrew McCarthy]

I am with you on this.  I think the interaction with the fans needs a little more attention.  That would have been a dead ball foul and added on to the live ball.  Would have been a tough sell in a tough environment in a big game with big emotions on a big play.  As officials we have to make judgement calls and the BJ made one in this case.  I would like to know if anything was brought up in the crew review about the fan interaction.

Plus the player would be DQ'd.

[agegbg]

Do you think that the Crew "didn't see" the taunting in Michigan @ Michigan St game
When Michigan St made a TD on a interception late in 4th quarter??

[saofficial(aust)]

Well I am surprised not many Aussie officials have commented on the thread or I cant identify them. Coming in late with so many replies my group of Aussie officials agree with the call.
What I feel sorry for is an Aussie in a college game as a punter getting his first score so sorry I have to go with over exuberance in the first instance. This person didnt grow up with the game as a regular US star and elite athlete. I dont think he deserves any slack but got what he deserved by not scoring legally.
Just a few days later we had a very similar call where a player turned 180% to face the players behind him 3 yards out from scoring.  , no  and 15 yards from the spot. Great call and easily backed up with the clip from LSU with the supporting commentary.
Make sure they score legally then celebrate.

[Aussie-Zebra]

I would say the majority of Aussie officials understand the concept of the rule but because of the relaxed approach under G.A. to USC for excessive celebration for example they may feel uncomfortable  for this. I feel the same way and don't like USC for excessive celebration at all but I would still  every time.

I was BJ in the last game of the day last night (my 4th game of the day) and the team A receiver caught a long pass at the 20 but then he went into a long stance and pointed forward. Unfortunately he pointed directly at the team B player in front of him. It may have been he was signalling 1st down but it looked like taunting so he cost his team 15 yards.

[saofficial(aust)]

So if he were to go in and score has he scored legally? Nope. That is our phrase. You can't be celebrating the score until the score has happened. Is it football? Nope. Football is the running and passing of the ball. Was it natural running motion? Nope, not unless he begun stumbling for some reason.
Once he crosses the goal line then he can celebrate his triumph and success and be respectful that he got into his opponents endzone.

[chymechowder]

It's a judgment call, guys, meaning by definition we will never agree 100%, especially on close ones.

Again, the player put his fate in the hands of another human being who is under directions which are not and can never be 100% precise.  The player made a decision, albeit spontaneous, and he has to live  with the consequences, which he and his coach have graciously done.

None of us can say exactly what we would have done because we weren't there on the field.  We now have the luxury of replay, dialogue, thinking time, etc. etc. but on the field we must react quickly.

Bottom line - if the player simply ran straight into the EZ, this discussion would not be taking place.

I hear what you're saying, and agree with alot of it. but the bolded parts are slightly problematic for me.  both sentences are true, but they kinda sound like a preemptive excuse, of sorts.  yes, it's a judgment call, but what if an official uses "bad judgement"? 

apples and oranges, I know, but say a receiver bobbles a pass and then reels it in before going OOB.  and I say incomplete because in my judgment he didn't have possesion before his foot hit the stripe.  if i'm WRONG, would it make sense for me to say after the fact: "Well, if the player had simply caught it clean on the first touch, then he wouldnt have put his fate in my hands" ?  in fact, that statement would be true.  but it wouldn't be a valid excuse for my mistake, nor should it be part of the discussion.

I'm not saying the flag on this play wasn't warranted.  (and if I were a coach, I would definitely tell my players to make sure they don't give an official any reason to throw a live ball USC flag on a scoring play.)  just saying  that there are two pieces to these calls:  1. what the player does; and 2. the judgement of the official.

I don't think we we should be too quick to dismiss a potential mistake in #2 by retroactively putting ALL the onus on #1. 

 

[Kalle]

if i'm WRONG, would it make sense for me to say after the fact: "Well, if the player had simply caught it clean on the first touch, then he wouldnt have put his fate in my hands" ?

It wouldn't, and in that case the player does not have a choice. But, like one coach has said, "if you don't want to be flagged for holding, don't give the official any reason to even think about flagging." Voluntary actions not related to football are always suspect, and if the player chooses to test the judgement of the official, the player must be willing to live with the consequences.