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Author Topic: More Horse Collar Discussion  (Read 11758 times)

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Offline TXMike

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More Horse Collar Discussion
« on: October 28, 2011, 05:15:37 AM »
Play 1   Tackler releases collar but ball carrier still comes down
http://youtu.be/v92X0PG40bI


Play 2  Ball carrier falls forward
http://youtu.be/IVVrY_TMPdk
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: More Horse Collar Discussion
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2011, 06:49:44 AM »
To have an HC call the defender has to have solid control of the runner by the collar, and a then a quick action by the defender to pull the runner down (primarily backwards).   Neither of these two plays meets the technical requirement that the rules require.
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Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: More Horse Collar Discussion
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2011, 07:48:43 AM »
Play #1  ^flag

Play #2 Nothing
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Chester

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Re: More Horse Collar Discussion
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2011, 09:59:44 AM »
To me, the first one is a no brainer.  Horse Collar all the way. 
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Offline Welpe

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Re: More Horse Collar Discussion
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2011, 10:05:53 AM »
Quote from: SATCFI on October 28, 2011, 07:48:43 AM
Play #1  ^flag

Play #2 Nothing

I agree.
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Offline Arbitrator

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Re: More Horse Collar Discussion
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2011, 10:12:13 AM »
Quote from: SATCFI on October 28, 2011, 07:48:43 AM
Play #1  ^flag

Play #2 Nothing

 ^flag

Ditto!   z^
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110

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Re: More Horse Collar Discussion
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2011, 10:15:09 AM »
Using the Canadian interp (force applied, inside shoulder pads or inside jersey collar, that changes the path of the tackled player) I have flag on the first play, nothing on the second.
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Offline TexDoc

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Re: More Horse Collar Discussion
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2011, 11:23:47 AM »
I got no flag on either play.  I don't think he got his hand inside the collar on the first one.  I think he was grabbing jersey and that's why his hand slipped off.  If he was inside the collar, I think he hangs on.
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Chester

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Re: More Horse Collar Discussion
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2011, 11:41:15 AM »
On the first play, I do like the wind of the clock on this play.  Very tight but believe his knee hits in bounds first. 

We don't have to rehash the discussion again but c'mon man.  This is a horse collar tackle. 
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Offline clearwall

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Re: More Horse Collar Discussion
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2011, 11:34:17 PM »
I wouldn't flag either. Horsecaller is grabbing the inside of the pad and pulling DOWN.
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Offline TXMike

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Re: More Horse Collar Discussion
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2011, 08:08:25 AM »
NCAA rules do not require the pad be grabbed for it to be a horse collar
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Offline 940AC

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Re: More Horse Collar Discussion
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2011, 08:48:55 PM »
#1 No immediate take down/tackle of the ball carrier.
Am I wrong, or doesn't their have to be an immediate take down/tackle for HC to apply?

#2 No flag.
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Offline Welpe

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Re: More Horse Collar Discussion
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2011, 12:08:51 AM »
Quote from: 940AC on October 29, 2011, 08:48:55 PM
#1 No immediate take down/tackle of the ball carrier.
Am I wrong, or doesn't their have to be an immediate take down/tackle for HC to apply?



I disagree.  As soon as the defender grabs the runner's collar, he starts to pull him down.
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Offline blindref757

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Re: More Horse Collar Discussion
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2011, 09:43:46 AM »
Intent of the rule...preventing injury by making it a major penalty to bring a runner down from behind and creating stress on the runner's legs. 

Play #1 = Duh!
Play #2 = No flag
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wv ref

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Re: More Horse Collar Discussion
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2011, 01:35:14 PM »
Play 1
NFHS - Arguable but no flag ( runner fell forward not backwards, you could argue its to the side but that would be the only way)
NCAA- Absolutely not ( was not immediate + logic from above)

Play 2

No on both NFHS and NCAA ( See above logic)
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Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: More Horse Collar Discussion
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2011, 04:21:24 PM »
Quote from: wv ref on October 30, 2011, 01:35:14 PM
Play 1
NFHS - Arguable but no flag ( runner fell forward not backwards, you could argue its to the side but that would be the only way)
NCAA- Absolutely not ( was not immediate + logic from above)


While I don't think this was a forward pull, it doesn't matter.  Under NFHS, the direction no longer matters.

9-4-3k: Grab the inside back or side collar of the shoulder pads or jersey of the runner
and subsequently pull that opponent to the ground

If you can grab the back or side of the collar and pull him any direction, it's a foul.

Under NCAA, that's close enough to immediate, there is a grab, a jerk, a quick release and a fall all within in a second or so of each other.
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wv ref

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Re: More Horse Collar Discussion
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2011, 08:02:49 PM »
you are right the rule book does not explicitly say the direction he must go however, look at the terminology in the rule. It says a player cannot "pull"  from the inside back or side of an opponent to the ground.  If his hand is inside of the back of the shoulder pads and he PULLS the runner, the runner would consequently have to fall backwards.  He could not fall forward as a result of a pull from the back.
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Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: More Horse Collar Discussion
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2011, 07:07:40 AM »
Quote from: wv ref on October 30, 2011, 08:02:49 PM
you are right the rule book does not explicitly say the direction he must go however, look at the terminology in the rule. It says a player cannot "pull"  from the inside back or side of an opponent to the ground.  If his hand is inside of the back of the shoulder pads and he PULLS the runner, the runner would consequently have to fall backwards.  He could not fall forward as a result of a pull from the back.

Of course you can, and it was shown on film during one of our clinics.

Defender coming up to runner from behind, grabs the collar, but has more momentum than the runner and passes him, without letting go.  His pull of the collar pulls the runner face first to the ground.

Obviously, this is NOT what the rule was intended to prevent (quick buckling of the knees), but under the NFHS rule, it IS a horse collar tackle.
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