penalty on try

[MJT]

What do you have on this play?

Try @ B3. The score is A28-B28. Time has expired in the fourth quarter. A6's kick is wide right. During the down, the offensive right tackle committed a face mask foul against a Team B player.

[Kalle]

I would guess team B declines the penalty, extra period. I doubt that team B wants to allow team A another shot from B-18, but it is always a remote possibility.

[MJT]

The question is, since it is a try and the foul is a PF, can it be carried over into the extra period?

[TxSkyBolt]

The question is, since it is a try and the foul is a PF, can it be carried over into the extra period?

No, only PF by B may be enforced from the succeeding kick off or spot in extra period.

c. Fouls by Team A on a try:
1. After a foul by Team A on a successful try, the ball shall be put in play
at the spot where the penalty leaves it (A.R. 8-3-3-I and III).
2. If Team A commits a foul for which the penalty includes loss of down,
the try is over, and the score is canceled, and no yardage penalty is
assessed on the succeeding kickoff.
3. If before a change of team possession Team A commits a foul that is
not offset, and during the down there is neither another change of team
possession nor a score, the penalty is declined by rule.

[Kalle]

No, only PF by B may be enforced from the succeeding kick off.

And even then there needs to be a team A score.

3. If before a change of team possession Team A commits a foul that is
not offset, and during the down there is neither another change of team
possession nor a score, the penalty is declined by rule.

This rule deals with fouls during a try where there is a change of team possession, so it does not apply to this discussion.

[MJT]

And even then there needs to be a team A score.

This rule deals with fouls during a try where there is a change of team possession, so it does not apply to this discussion.

So Kalle, which rule specifically covers my question in which there is a PF by A on an unsuccessful try after time expired in the 4th qtr and whether or not it can be carried over?

[Atlanta Blue]

So Kalle, which rule specifically covers my question in which there is a PF by A on an unsuccessful try after time expired in the 4th qtr and whether or not it can be carried over?

8-3-3-c3 (as quoted above):

If before a change of team possession Team A commits a foul that is
not offset, and during the down there is neither another change of team
possession nor a score, the penalty is declined by rule.

[Kalle]

8-3-3-c3 (as quoted above):

Hmm, it does seem that there is no option for team B to take the penalty and have the try replayed. I first read the language to deal only with a situation where there's a COP and a foul by team A before the COP, but it must apply to all fouls by team A before a COP, even if there is none.

That does mean that if team B is behind by 1-2 points, they get shafted if team A fouls during the try (why would they attempt it is a different question, but we have all seen our share of even weirder stuff).

[MJT]

8-3-3-c3 (as quoted above):

If before a change of team possession Team A commits a foul that is
not offset, and during the down there is neither another change of team
possession nor a score, the penalty is declined by rule.

Here is my problem with this. 8-3-3-c3 is talking about before a change of team possession, and later neither another change of team
possession nor a score.

This play never has a change of team possession, which 8-3-3-c3 is all about. Also, the rule is there so PF's on try's can be carried over to extra periods. They want that to be enforced since it is a personal foul. I don't see a rule that says this cannot be carried over. Do you??

[jg-me]

You seem to be reading in 8-3-3 that there HAS to be a COP for the rule to apply. I don't think this is the intent of this particular rule. It covers us for fouls that occur during a try whether or not there is a COP. If there is a foul during a try and no COP, this is your rule reference. If there is a foul during a try and a COP, use this rule if the foul is prior to the COP. If there is a foul during a try and the foul occurs after the COP, use rule 8-3-4.

[JasonTX]

There is an approved ruling that covers fouls by Team A on an unsuccessful Try.  AR 8-3-3 I:

During a try attempt, Team A’s legal kick, untouched and in the air,
has crossed the neutral zone when a foul occurs. RULING: If the
foul is by Team A and the try is unsuccessful, and Team B does not
gain possession, the try ends. If the foul is by Team A and the try is
successful, the penalty is at the previous spot. If the foul is by Team
B and the try is successful, score the point unless Team A chooses to
accept the penalty and attempt a two-point play. The try is exempt from
postscrimmage kick enforcement. Penalties for Team B personal fouls
on a successful try may be enforced on the subsequent kickoff or at the
succeeding spot in extra periods. If the try is unsuccessful, Team A may
accept the penalty and the down will be repeated.

[MJT]

There is an approved ruling that covers fouls by Team A on an unsuccessful Try.  AR 8-3-3 I:

During a try attempt, Team A’s legal kick, untouched and in the air,
has crossed the neutral zone when a foul occurs. RULING: If the
foul is by Team A and the try is unsuccessful, and Team B does not
gain possession, the try ends. If the foul is by Team A and the try is
successful, the penalty is at the previous spot. If the foul is by Team
B and the try is successful, score the point unless Team A chooses to
accept the penalty and attempt a two-point play. The try is exempt from
postscrimmage kick enforcement. Penalties for Team B personal fouls
on a successful try may be enforced on the subsequent kickoff or at the
succeeding spot in extra periods. If the try is unsuccessful, Team A may
accept the penalty and the down will be repeated.

So the only time a team does NOT have the option of having a PF penalty enforced is if it is a foul by team A on an unsuccessful try?  All other circumstances the offending team can have it enforced? That seems odd to me.   

[Kalle]

So the only time a team does NOT have the option of having a PF penalty enforced is if it is a foul by team A on an unsuccessful try?  All other circumstances the offending team can have it enforced? That seems odd to me. 

That's the NCAA rules for you. Looks like no coach has ever had this situation gone against them, so nobody has brought it up.

[NVFOA_Ump]

So the only time a team does NOT have the option of having a PF penalty enforced is if it is a foul by team A on an unsuccessful try?  All other circumstances the offending team can have it enforced? That seems odd to me. 

I would venture a guess that the rulemakers have assumed the "choice that is obvious" option and simply built it in on the try down since what's the odds that team B would want to enforce a penalty when they would then have to allow team A a replay of the try after the missed PAT?

[MJT]

I would venture a guess that the rulemakers have assumed the "choice that is obvious" option and simply built it in on the try down since what's the odds that team B would want to enforce a penalty when they would then have to allow team A a replay of the try after the missed PAT?

This was on a test of ours. My thought was B could accept the penalty, BUT have it enforced on the try, OR succeeding spot in OT. This would make it similar to all other situations where a PF occurs.

[NVFOA_Ump]

This was on a test of ours. My thought was B could accept the penalty, BUT have it enforced on the try, OR succeeding spot in OT. This would make it similar to all other situations where a PF occurs.

But that would effectively be allowing B to get two options - count the down and enforce the penalty, and current rules allow for a replay of the down on an enforced penalty resulting from live ball foul against A.  I believe that the rationale for allowing the A options, keeping the point(s), and enforcing on the succeeding play are so that B doesn't look at a PF on a scrimmage kick play as a "free one".

[sj_31]

I assume this includes a live-ball UNS by A and other "live ball fouls treated as dead-ball fouls"?

[Kalle]

I assume this includes a live-ball UNS by A and other "live ball fouls treated as dead-ball fouls"?

It does include a live-ball UNS but not LBFTADBFs (a live-ball UNS is no longer one). Rule 8-3-3-d-2 deals with LBFTADBFs.