Coachable moment!!!

[IA-HL]

When are coaches going to take advantage of a great coachable moments? Last night we had 3 RTP calls. On every call I talked with the player and explained what they did wrong. Than I hear the coach yelling to the player "great hit (name) no way was that RTP".
On another call there was a dead ball "USC" for slamming the ball carrier to the ground after a touchdown. Wing official sounded whistle gave signal clearing players and the kid commits foul. Again coach says to player, "good job (name) no way was that a penalty" 

The last two years with freshmen & JV coaches it feels like most (not all) coaches are more concerned winning than teaching the kids.

Sorry guys just needed to vent.

[Atlanta Blue]

Maybe they were coachable moments, but let me show it to you from the other side of the line:

Player does exactly what I taught him to do.  You, the less experienced official (and I'm speaking hypothetically, not you IA-HL) call it it foul, when I know that you simply don't understand the rule, and that any good varsity official isn't going to call it that way.  I want the player NOT to be discouraged by your flag, I want him to know he did exactly what I wanted him to do.  I may well encourage his behavior despite your call.

I'm NOT trying to justify every i-di-ot sub varsity coach out there, and there are certainly plenty of them.  But I'm not going to defend every "less experienced" (or incompetent) sub varsity official either, are there are plenty of those as well.

And I assume by putting the USC in quotes, you realize that someone on our crew is fitting into the "less experienced" crowd here by calling that a USC instead of a DBPF.  I wasn't there, I'm not saying it wasn't a foul, but if it was as you described, it sure wasn't a USC either!

[srhendon]

AB I see what you are getting to, on the younger officials but wouldn't a more experenced official try to talk him out of the flag or at least tell him the correct terms for the foul? If the R is a junior official he shouldn't be R but sometimes that happens. This could be a teaching moment for officials, players, and coaches.

[HLinNC]

On every call I talked with the player and explained what they did wrong.

Don't know if I'd do that unless the coach asks me to.   Don't know in a game situation if I have time to do that anyway.

[centexsports]

I don't disagree with AB except a coach that was smart enough to do this would do it on the sideline out of earshot of the officials.   By yelling this to the player, the coach is just showing his lack of understanding, lac of coaching skills or lack of respect for the officials.   

I don't flag the sideline very often (twice in 20 years) but if he did that to me twice in one game, I might consider a flag on him.

[Roscoe]

I don't flag the sideline very often (twice in 20 years) but if he did that to me twice in one game, I might consider a flag on him.

I would probably do the same

[Curious]

Don't know if I'd do that unless the coach asks me to.   Don't know in a game situation if I have time to do that anyway.

Agreed.  Learn from that TV commercial that asks, "you wouldn't want your doctor to do your job; so don't try to do his"....

Coaches coach; we officiate....

[FBUmp]

On another call there was a dead ball "USC" for slamming the ball carrier to the ground after a touchdown.

Really?  Are you sure that's the correct call? 

[IA-HL]

Really?  Are you sure that's the correct call? 

What would you call on a player that slammed the ball carrier to the ground 5 or 6 seconds after the whistle blew on a touchdown? This B player was not even in the EZ when the whistle blow. He came in after and slammed him down. So are you calling PF or USC?

[IAUMP]

IA-HL - An USC does not involve contact, but a PF does involve contact.  What everybody is trying to say is it should have been a PF.  And if it was 5-6 seconds after the whistle you should have considered this possibly a flagarant PF ending in disqualification of the offending player.

[ECILLJ]

On every call I talked with the player and explained what they did wrong.

IA-HL, I am not sure it is our job to tell players what they did wrong. We penalize, we enforce the penalty, and we relay the number to the coach. If the player asks, I will tell them, but I do not initiate that conversation.

[bbeagle]

What would you call on a player that slammed the ball carrier to the ground 5 or 6 seconds after the whistle blew on a touchdown?

Personal Foul and Ejection.

This B player was not even in the EZ when the whistle blow. He came in after and slammed him down.

What does 'B player was not even in the EZ when the whistle blow' even mean? I don't care where the B player was, if he slammed the player down 5-6 seconds after the whistle - he's gone with a PF and ejection.

So are you calling PF or USC?

USC (Unsportsmanlike conduct) is just for VERBAL and NON-CONTACT fouls.
PF (Personal Foul) is for CONTACT fouls.

[bbeagle]

IA-HL, I am not sure it is our job to tell players what they did wrong. We penalize, we enforce the penalty, and we relay the number to the coach. If the player asks, I will tell them, but I do not initiate that conversation.

Normally, with a roughing-the-passer penalty, as a white-hat, I'm alone with the QB and the B player, and the play is well out of the picture. I'll throw my flag and tell the B player something like, 'You hit him well too late, son!' or 'That's totally unnecessary. The ball was gone for a good second', or 'I know you saw the ball was gone, and you still hit him' or 'Seriously?'

To me, this is good officiating - I'm trying to clean up the game and hopefully ensure that the QB doesn't keep getting hit illegally. It's my job to protect the QB as well as I can not only with my flag, but with my voice. I want to tell the players WHY I'm throwing the flag so they can understand what they did wrong and not repeat this behavior. If they choose to ignore me, so be it. But at least they know WHY I'm calling the foul.

This is why we also say things like 'Ball is away' or 'Kick is gone', so the defensive players know to let up. Safety, to me, is not coaching... it's safety.

I think for other penalties on the field - it's different. We only talk if the player asks us.

[FBUmp]

What would you call on a player that slammed the ball carrier to the ground 5 or 6 seconds after the whistle blew on a touchdown? This B player was not even in the EZ when the whistle blow. He came in after and slammed him down. So are you calling PF or USC?

I'm calling a personal foul.  Personal fouls are for illegal contact.

I'm not callingl a USC.  USC fouls are non-contact fouls. 

That's very basic information.  If you don't know the difference in a personal foul and an unsportsmanlike conduct foul, perhaps you need to spend some time in the rule book. 

[110]

What would you call on a player that slammed the ball carrier to the ground 5 or 6 seconds after the whistle blew on a touchdown? This B player was not even in the EZ when the whistle blow. He came in after and slammed him down. So are you calling PF or USC?

I'd call that a free trip to the locker-room.

[brownie]

What are peoples thought’s on a USC on the coach for the first time he says it?  As stated a smart coach would tell the player on the side line out of ear shot
 
I see the comments as breaching the Football Code, in regard to “indulge in conduct that might incite players or spectators against the officials” however under 9. 2   I can’t see a direct link between breaking the code and it being an unsportsmanlike penalty.
 
I think it fits under the banner of  “unsportsmanlike conduct or any act that interferes with orderly game administration” as I’d see the comments encouraging players to question the call, but is it the lack of it being specifically noted as a USC that makes officials reluctant to call, or is it the “coach is king” culture that I see mentioned every now and then that holds people off calling it?

[HLinNC]

Slippery slope brownie.  You must not be a wing.  Its easy when the U or a BJ ticks off the HC but it makes for a long night to throw a USC that weak.  Call us politicians if you like but he didn't cuss and he directed nothing directly at the official.  At best I might tell him "that's enough" and that usually is.

[bbeagle]

At best I might tell him "that's enough" and that usually is.

Agreed. It all depends on the play. I have both told coaches 'that's enough' and I have flagged them.

For example, a clearly late hit on a defenseless receiver over the middle, where the defender punishes the player by spearing him head to head. I'm going to eject the player for this. If the coach tells the player that it was 'a good play', I'm giving the coach an USC.

If it's something of the sort where there was a normal hold or block-in-the-back that the coach is upset with, I'll normally tell the coach 'that's enough'.

[brownie]

Thanks guys, sounds like the warning is the best way to go.

[AFSST]

Agreed. It all depends on the play. I have both told coaches 'that's enough' and I have flagged them.

For example, a clearly late hit on a defenseless receiver over the middle, where the defender punishes the player by spearing him head to head. I'm going to eject the player for this. If the coach tells the player that it was 'a good play', I'm giving the coach an USC.

If it's something of the sort where there was a normal hold or block-in-the-back that the coach is upset with, I'll normally tell the coach 'that's enough'.

If the coach is making a statement, or shaping his "question" to make a statement ("how could you miss that?"), I just leave it alone.  IMO, we need to be very judicious with our USC fouls.  Regardless of level, our coaches can still make mistakes in the heat of the moment, and we need to allow them to display emotion, especially when we throw a "significant" flag.  My "boundary" is when the coach directs one of the "juicy" profanities directly to me within earshot of the kids.  "That's bulls@#$" doesn't get a flag from me, unless we've had a discussion and I've explained my call, and he just won't let it go.  Unfortunately, the kids hear profanities from many coaches, and they hear it at school all day long, so we shouldn't suddenly have to be the cursing police.

I get a certain morbid satisfaction when NFL and Division I coaches go off on (real) NFL and college officials for the same reasons they go off on us.  That allows me to "relax" and not take offense at excited coaches.

"That's enough" is appropriate, but only when verbal abuse has accumulated to the ridiculous stage.  I've told assistant coaches "that's enough" when I'm tired of listening to them whine about the same thing on every play.  I rarely say "that's enough" to a head coach.

[Atlanta Blue]

A USC foul for the coach's comment is absurd.  I umpire baseball, at some pretty high levels.  I call a pitch a ball, and the coach hollers to his pitcher, "Put it there again, he'll call the next one a strike", or "That's a great pitch, don't worry about the call", etc.  Good grief, that's part of the game.  Coaches support players, and yes, sometimes at the expense of the official.  Don't be so thin skinned to take every criticism as a foul.

If you do, you aren't going to last long.

[AFSST]

Coaches support players, and yes, sometimes at the expense of the official.  Don't be so thin skinned to take every criticism as a foul.

If you do, you aren't going to last long.

Amen

[maven]

Amen, sure, but every official must draw a line somewhere. Not every criticism is a foul, but some are. Part of the maturation process is learning where to draw that line.

After what he perceived as a bad call, I had a (baseball) coach tell me this past season, "You're better than that!" I'm still trying to figure out if that was personal!