NFHS- Helmet comes off

[UmpireFromFlorida]

This conversation started last night at our meeting, we found no case book reference.  A1 makes a legal catch. After the whistle, B1 comes in with a late hit and is flagged.  A1 helmet comes off after the late hit.  Question? Does A1 have to sit out for one play?  My thinking is yes, A1 only stays in the game if the foul is a facemask or  hands to the face.  Our commissioner left us with no concrete answer.  Your thoughts please.   

[maven]

Topic should be in NFHS.

You're aware that 3-5-10d was changed this year to deal with precisely this question?

"The helmet comes completely off during the down or subsequent dead-ball action related to the down without being directly attributable to a foul by an opponent."

In any case, since the helmet came off due to a foul by the opponent (need not be a facemask foul, and NFHS does not define a "hands to face" foul), the offended player need not sit out.

[UmpireFromFlorida]

Thank you.  I will share with my experts.

[VALJ]

Would anyone cut it a bit finer and determine whether the foul really did cause the helmet to come off?  Say the late hit was at the knees, and A1's helmet comes off when he hits the ground.  Is that still "directly attributable" to the foul?

[maven]

Would anyone cut it a bit finer and determine whether the foul really did cause the helmet to come off?  Say the late hit was at the knees, and A1's helmet comes off when he hits the ground.  Is that still "directly attributable" to the foul?

Yes, we have to judge "directly attributable." Benefit of any doubt to the fouled player.

[UmpireFromFlorida]

I want to thank you all for responding.

[Rulesman]

I want to thank you all for responding.

There is never a shortage of opinions around here. Which is a good thing, by the way!

[bbeagle]

Play 1: 3rd and 10 from the A6. A12, from his own endzone, throws the ball, which is intercepted in the endzone by helmetless lineman B65.

Since the ball is 'dead' when B65 gains possession, it's not a touchdown for B. But where is the penalty enforced? Was this a loose ball play, because in 'nobody' caught the ball? Is this penalty enforced from the end of the run before the pass was thrown?

Is the next down 1st and 10 from the A21? Or 4th and 1 from the A15?

What if the penalty is declined? Is it 4th and 10 from the A6? Or is it a touchdown for B?

[jg-me]

No longer a NF guru so please don't take any of this as gospel. However, if the ball is not dead until it is possessed then this play DID result in a TD for B. They are in possession of the ball, in their opponents' end zone and the interception is by an eligible player. Now, since the B player was helmetless at the time he touched the ball (prior to actual possession) at the latest he commits IP at that point in the play - loose ball foul.

[HLinNC]

Agree w/jg.  Georgia may or may not have a differing interpretation according to the other thread.

[zhntr]

Play 1: 3rd and 10 from the A6. A12, from his own endzone, throws the ball, which is intercepted in the endzone by helmetless lineman B65.

Since the ball is 'dead' when B65 gains possession, it's not a touchdown for B. But where is the penalty enforced? Was this a loose ball play, because in 'nobody' caught the ball? Is this penalty enforced from the end of the run before the pass was thrown?

Is the next down 1st and 10 from the A21? Or 4th and 1 from the A15?

What if the penalty is declined? Is it 4th and 10 from the A6? Or is it a touchdown for B?

In this situation, what if B65 is still engaged in "immediate action" (let's say he is still engaged in a block with A66), the QB throws the ball, and B65 sticks up his arm, bats the ball to himself, and catches it in the EZ.

Do you consider the raising of B65's arm/hand as no longer "immediate action"? How about when he then catches it?

[maven]

I'd be OK ruling the result of the play a TD for B. But B65 was participating illegally prior to the COP in making a play on the pass, and so B did not gain possession with clean hands. If A chooses to accept the penalty for IP, the score will not count.

Loose ball play, enforce from the basic spot under ABO (previous spot), A 1/10 @ A21, clock on the snap (3-4-3d for the last part).

[maven]

In this situation, what if B65 is still engaged in "immediate action" (let's say he is still engaged in a block with A66), the QB throws the ball, and B65 sticks up his arm, bats the ball to himself, and catches it in the EZ.

Do you consider the raising of B65's arm/hand as no longer "immediate action"? How about when he then catches it?

The immediate action in this case would be blocking and rushing the passer. Making a play on the pass would be a separate act.

[bbeagle]

It seems that the helmetless player intercepting a pass/recovering a fumble in the endzone breaks 3 of football fundamentals:

1. Possession of a live ball in an opponent's endzone is always a touchdown.
2. No foul causes loss of the ball
3. No live ball foul causes the ball to become dead.

[jg-me]

Don't think any fundamentals are broken here.
1) the play DOES result in a TD (prior to any penalty enforcement)
2) the foul in and of itself does not cause the loss of the football - the result of the penalty enforcement leaves Team A with the ball
3) the foul did not cause the ball to become dead. The rule which states that the ball is dead when a runner's helmet is off causes the ball to be declared dead. It is coincidental that the player that becomes the 'runner' has committed a foul in this particular play.

[maven]

Don't think any fundamentals are broken here.
1) the play DOES result in a TD (prior to any penalty enforcement)
2) the foul in and of itself does not cause the loss of the football - the result of the penalty enforcement leaves Team A with the ball
3) the foul did not cause the ball to become dead. The rule which states that the ball is dead when a runner's helmet is off causes the ball to be declared dead. It is coincidental that the player that becomes the 'runner' has committed a foul in this particular play.

Agree on all 3 points.

[bbeagle]

Don't think any fundamentals are broken here.
1) the play DOES result in a TD (prior to any penalty enforcement)
2) the foul in and of itself does not cause the loss of the football - the result of the penalty enforcement leaves Team A with the ball
3) the foul did not cause the ball to become dead. The rule which states that the ball is dead when a runner's helmet is off causes the ball to be declared dead. It is coincidental that the player that becomes the 'runner' has committed a foul in this particular play.

Okay. I agree with your interpretations. On the play where a helmetless player is in the opponent's endzone and recovers a fumble or pass, I would signal touchdown and throw my flag at the same time. It's possible (although unlikely) that the score could count.

For example, Team A leading 42-32 with :04 left in the 4th quarter, 1st and 10 at their 20. Quarterback A12 fumbles the kneeldown, and while trying to get the ball, muffs it back into his own endzone. Meanwhile, player B65 loses his helmet and recovers the ball in the endzone. Quarterback A12 is injured on the play and is attended to. Coach A doesn't want to run another play, so he declines the illegal participation penalty. Game over - Team A wins 42-38.

[bbeagle]

Always thinking. Here's one which seems very possible to happen:

Player A24, runs with the ball down the field. B20 running with him, trying to tackle him. A24 stiff-arms B20 in the facemask. B20's helmet comes off. Helmetless player B20 then tackles runner A24.

Do we add an additional 15 yards against B20 for playing without a helmet - basically rewarding an 'excellent' stiff-arm?

Or do we determine if the stiff arm was too violent (hands to the face or a facemask foul), or this was a normal stiff arm with an overly loose helmet, and only B20 gets a 15 yard penalty? Seems like a lot to pay attention to and think about while running down the field chasing B20 and A24, and continuing to follow them after this action and spotting the ball at the tackle.

[HLinNC]

Remember the term immediate action, it is pertinent.  B20 can make the tackle he is initiating.

As long as the stiff arm was not delivered as a blow, legal play