Penalty enforcement when line to gain achieved

[BryanM67]

Scenario:

3rd and 12 for A at B47.  Line to gain is at B35.  Player A12 hands off ball to A22.  There is a block in the back at  B34 (past the line to gain).  A22 (the runner) is tackled at B29.

A did in fact gain enough legitimate yards to earn a first down (the foul happened past the line to gain).

So, which statement is correct?

1.  A earns a first down since they did make it past the line to gain before the foul.  Assess the penalty (10 yards) from the spot of the foul (B34).  After penalty, ball is at B44.  1st and 10 (assess all penalties before setting the chains).

2.  No first down.  The effects of the foul must be enforced before consider first down.  Penalty is enforced from spot of the foul (B34).  After penalty, ball is at B44.  3rd and 9.

If I understand 5.1.2 correctly, then it would be #2 because all fouls other than non-player and USC must be applied before awarding a series.

Is my understanding correct?

[Atlanta Blue]

Yes.

You didn't get this from our game on Friday, did you?  Officials made this exact mistake.  Yard lines are almost identical as well!

[Rulesman]

#2 is correct.

[BryanM67]

no.. I worked a different game Friday night.  Actually this situation game up in a peewee game (11 and 12 year olds division).  I don't remember the exact yardlines or yardage of the play, so I simply came up with a scenario to see if I understood the correct ruling. 

[KWH]

#2 is correct...
#1 is would be a mistake...

[maven]

This is pretty basic enforcement stuff (and I say that mainly in response to AB's post, not the OP).

Rule 5-1-2a:

A new series of downs is awarded:

a. After a first, second or third down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down other than non-player or unsportsmanlike conduct fouls by A, and any dead-ball foul by B.

[Ralph Damren]

This type of foul is why we stress to the chain gang : "DON"T MOVE the stakes until we tell you to !" If they didn't listen and did  your possible resorces could be : (1) Conference your crew, someone may remember; (2) hope the "new flangled" scoreboard has a "ball's on" number; (3) bring both stat guys togather and ask; (4) search for local scribe strolling the sidelines, usually they track these; (5) guess . Consider potential of using chains & taped link if close in a critical situation . Example : (1)4th & 8 @ B-44 ;(2) A1 runs for TD; (3) A2 blocks in the back @ around B-26; (4) Zebras spot ball at spot of foul; (5) Bring out chains and (a) secure lead pole; (b) swing trail pole around to align with spotted ball ;(c) if ball is inside chains you'll be playing within the current series -4th & short - if ball is touching you have a new series. An simular procedure can be followed with the aid of the tape on 15 yarders -just be creative.

[Atlanta Blue]

no.. I worked a different game Friday night. 

Here is ours:

1&10 on the B42.  A12 rushes for 12 yards to the B30, but is called for a face mask foul at the end of the run (we won't go into the quality of the call, which does not seem to be supported by film).  Ball marched back to the B45.  Should be 1&13, but R has chains moved back, saying we made the first down.  So we lose a net of three yards on the play, and start over with 1&10.  FJ saw it, tried to get the R to fix it, R insisted he was right.  FJ and I had a nice little discussion about that one, as we both knew he was wrong.

I didn't make a big deal out of it, I'd rather have 1&10 than 1&13.

[ECILLJ]

You stated the face mask foul occurred at the end of the run. I assume you meant the foul occurred while the ball was live.

If the face mask occurred after the runner was down or forward progress ended, the call would have been correct. Dead ball, personal foul, face mask, the line to gain was reached, 15 yards from spot, A's ball 1st and ten from the B45 yard line.

P.S. A committing a face mask foul is a rare occurrence

[VALJ]

P.S. A committing a face mask foul is a rare occurrence

It is, but I had it last week too in a JV game.  The running back came to my side on a sweep, and went to stiffarm the B player.  He got the hand into the face mask, then pulled the B player down by it.

My observer told me after the game that a facemask by the ball carrier doesn't make sense.  I told him it may not make sense, but that's what we had.

[ECILLJ]

VALJ- After thinking about it, I too have seen that play several times over the years. It is not as rare as I originally thought.

[Atlanta Blue]

It's rare enough that it didn't actually happen, and yes, it was called as a live ball foul.

We heard tonight that the H threw the flag because the runner "pushed the opponent's face mask upward".  Association admits he "applied the wrong standard".

So there were TWO mistakes on the play: 1, it wasn't a foul, and 2, the chains should not have been reset.

[VALJ]

VALJ- After thinking about it, I too have seen that play several times over the years. It is not as rare as I originally thought.

Oh, it's still rare - I can count on one hand the number of times I've thrown it in 13 years.  I just can't believe, if only from a player safety perspective, that my observer told me that throwing a flag for the runner grabbing a facemask and pulling the defender down is a call that "doesn't make sense".

[FLAHL]

I've seen it, and called it, a few times on Friday night.  I see it a couple of times each year during youth games on Saturday.  You might want to refer your observer to 9-4-3-g "No player shall grasp an opponent's face mask, any edge of a helmet opening, chin strap, or a tooth and mouth protector attached to the face mask." 

[Ralph Damren]

  A possible response from our beloved Mr. VALJ to Mr. Observer could be : " Thank you for your astute observeration, Mr. Observer, but not calling fouls that are safety-based doesn't (sic- I know double negative) make sense . My top priority out on the field is the safety of the kids . Grabbing and pulling one's face mask is not a safe act. In a previous life I was a pet bird and did not enjoy my cage being moved,shaken or yanked. I'm sure the kid, whose mask was yanked, didn't enjoy it either. " Mr. Observer may then realize that observing the safety fouls are very important at our level. 

[Rulesman]

Another way to look at it is "You can't fix stupid." Ignore the observer's bird-brained view and keep doing what you are doing. You can never go wrong by doing the right thing.

[maven]

Another was to look at it is "You can't fix stupid." Ignore the observer's bird-brained view and keep doing what you are doing. You can never go wrong by doing the right thing.

Best not to argue with observers. Just say, "Thank you." If you have any doubt, research it later.

[VALJ]

Best not to argue with observers. Just say, "Thank you." If you have any doubt, research it later.

Exactly my approach to him.  Explained the call I had to him, then when he said "that's just not believable" I thanked him for his feedback.   

[prab]

The really scary thing about this scenario, is that people like this observer also get to vote and sit on juries.