What'cha Got

[JasonTX]

This didn't happen, but just something I dreamed up.

4th and 1 at the B-2.  A12 receives the snap and hands off to A22 who runs up the middle and disappears into the pile right at the line of scrimmage out of view from any official (5 man crew).  Both wing officials crash in to locate the ball.  After un-piling all the players, A40, the fullback has the ball in his possession in the end zone at the bottom of the pile.

What'cha got?

[Magician]

Unless you have absolute knowledge an A player was down prior to reaching the goal line you have a TD.  A team can definitely gain an advantage by scooting forward in the pile in this situation and get a call.  This is why it's important the U heads to the pile ASAP to reduce the likelihood of anything happening.

[Legacy Zebra]

Magician, I don't think Jason's question was about being down, but rather that on 4th down one person (A22) starts with the ball behind the line to gain and a different another player (A40) ends up with it. I don't think you can rule touchdown unless you know that A22 was the player to cross the goal line with the ball. If A40 recovered a fumble, it would go back to the spot of the fumble.

[Kalle]

We have no positive knowledge that A22 crossed the goal line with the ball, so it can't be a TD. The wings need to agree on a spot in the field of play where the ball will be spotted. It will then be either team A's or team B's ball.

[jg-me]

Just for the sake of argument - there is also no positive knowledge that A22 fumbled the ball prior to reaching the GL. He may have or he may even have handed the ball to A40. In the play as written no one knows for sure. If this was any down other than fourth, what would you do? Pretty certain you're awarding a TD. Why do differently if you do not know there was a fourth down fumble?

[Magician]

Magician, I don't think Jason's question was about being down, but rather that on 4th down one person (A22) starts with the ball behind the line to gain and a different another player (A40) ends up with it. I don't think you can rule touchdown unless you know that A22 was the player to cross the goal line with the ball. If A40 recovered a fumble, it would go back to the spot of the fumble.

Good catch.  I didn't catch that.  I completely agree.  With no knowledge of A22 being in the end zone you can't award a TD. See Leather!  There are going to be times in the bottom of a pile when a runner will be in the end zone and pushed out by the time we find him and there are going to be times when the runner was down short but got into the end zone before we find him.  We can only go by the facts we know.  It's why it is critical we get in there as soon as possible.

If this was any down other than fourth, what would you do? Pretty certain you're awarding a TD. Why do differently if you do not know there was a fourth down fumble?

Agree TD.  The reason why it's different is because the facts are you never saw A22 down with the ball in his possession and you never saw A22 in the end zone with the ball.  The only things you know as fact is the ball is in the possession of another player.

[chymechowder]

Split the difference?  Drop a bag on the 1 yd-line. 1/G at the B-1 

seriously though, you can't invoke 4th down fumble rule if there's no bag on the ground for a fumble. so unless a wing picks a forward progress spot, it'd have to be TD.

[Kalle]

seriously though, you can't invoke 4th down fumble rule if there's no bag on the ground for a fumble. so unless a wing picks a forward progress spot, it'd have to be TD.

So you're going to say to the team B coach that A22 managed to make a legal backward pass in the pile?

I think the old adage "no cheap scores" applies here.

[chymechowder]

I totally agree with no cheap scores. If you want to retroactively assume fumble in this spot, you're most likely correct. but you're still partially guessing. can you drop a bag after you see A40 with the ball in the endzone?  probably. (that's why my first answer was only partially jokey; kind of an after the fact compromise ruling).

but you agree you do need to have a bag down if you're going to cite 4th down fumble right?

[Wingmanbp]

Split the difference?  Drop a bag on the 1 yd-line. 1/G at the B-1 

seriously though, you can't invoke 4th down fumble rule if there's no bag on the ground for a fumble. so unless a wing picks a forward progress spot, it'd have to be TD.

Mechanics say to drop a bag if you see the ball come lose. If not how can you drop a bag?
The way I see it if you see A22 go into the pile with the ball then he needs to be the one holding it in the endzone or its fourth down fumble rule turnover on downs. Because you cant drop a bag if you don't see a fumble and you don't know if he was down when he fumbled or not.

[Sonofanump]

Split the difference?  Drop a bag on the 1 yd-line. 1/G at the B-1 

seriously though, you can't invoke 4th down fumble rule if there's no bag on the ground for a fumble. so unless a wing picks a forward progress spot, it'd have to be TD.

I am leaning towards this, but I'd make sure the ball is clearly inside the 1 and a first down.  It seems to me the most logical thing to do and does the least harm to both teams.

[Wingmanbp]

Yeah Im sorry I thought it was 4th and goal

[Kalle]

In this particular case I think the least bad option is 1st and goal at the one, but if it is goal to go, you're more or less screwed either way. I really don't want to be in that situation...

[Wingmanbp]

I doubt real serious that even replay would help!

[Magician]

Split the difference?  Drop a bag on the 1 yd-line. 1/G at the B-1 

seriously though, you can't invoke 4th down fumble rule if there's no bag on the ground for a fumble. so unless a wing picks a forward progress spot, it'd have to be TD.

You can have a fumble without a bean bag. That's just an indication you saw the ball come out and you know where it happened.  Too many people use it as an absolute indicator of fumble has occurred. What the bean bag is is a marking of a potential enforcement spot.  On a play like this you can determine the approximate enforcement spot without too much trouble.

[StudyingFutureZebra]

Oh boy, there's so many "ifs." Unless somebody positively saw A22 down with possession of the football,  .

[James]

Sorry SFZ but unless I SEE the ball in POSSESSION of an A player IN the end-zone I'm not ringing up  .
(not entirely true, a non-4th down fumble that comes to rest in the EZ and no one wants to pick it up - a crew in my association actually had that last year.)

If NO ONE saw the ball in possession in the end zone than I think we look for the last time the ball was seen in legal possession and award forward progress there.

[dvasques]

(not entirely true, a non-4th down fumble that comes to rest in the EZ and no one wants to pick it up - a crew in my association actually had that last year.)

why would you not give a TD for a 4th down fumble at rest in the EZ?

[James]

Very good question.
Because I have always equated 4th down fumble with fumble OOB. Which is NOT correct, as I now know (7-2-5)!

Good catch.

[FabioBroncos]

Absolutely a great question!

I'd go with the "no cheap score" procedure and spot a 1/goal @ B-1.