First Touching and Penalty

[WestCoastOfficial]

Quick question about first touching and how it applies to penalties that follow first touching…I’ve thought so long about this my mind can’t make heads or tails any longer:

4th and 10, K punts the ball and as it’s bouncing along beyond the NZ, K1 touches it but the ball continues to roll.  R2 picks it up and advances the ball 10 yards where he is hit and fumbles.  K10 picks the ball up and runs for a score.  During R2’s run and prior to his fumble, R5 blocks K3 below the waist. 

If K declines the penalty in an attempt to keep the score, does that then give R the option of taking the ball at the spot of first touching, or does the fact that R committed a foul (even if declined) still nullify R’s opportunity to take the ball at the spot of first touching?

I realize that under “normal” circumstances (change of possession), the scoring team would decline the foul and keep the score, but I’m trying to figure it out where first touching is a factor.  I also realize that had no foul occurred, R would simply elect to take the ball at the spot of first touching and K’s score would not count (which seems a little unfair to me, especially since the kick ended when R gained possession and they decided to attempt a return).  The foul thing is throwing me off.  Little help…?

[Bwest]

Does the fact that R committed a foul (even if declined) still nullify R’s opportunity to take the ball at the spot of first touching?

Short answer is yes.

First touching is wiped away the second R fouls (as long as it's after the first touching), and they can't get it back. K touchdown.

[WestCoastOfficial]

Thank you, Bwest.  Much appreciated.

[Ralph Damren]

Try this one,guys : (1)K's ball 4 & 10 @ 50; (2) R1 is flagged for running into the kicker; (3) K1 touches the grounded kick @ R's 35 ; (4) R2 scoops up kick @ R's 30 ; (5) R2 fumbles on return @ R's 40; (6) K scoops up fumble and returns for TD. What are the options ?

[bama_stripes]

K 4th & 5 at the R-45, or TD for R.

[Curious]

K 4th & 5 at the R-45, or TD for R.

TD for R, 'Bama?

4/5 for K from R-45 or 1/10 for K from R-35.  R's foul occurred behind the LOS and was prior to K's first touch -therefore is not PSK; so, if the RTK is not accepted, FT applies.   (I thinK....)

[Atlanta Blue]

4/5 for K from R-45 or 1/10 for K from R-35.  R's foul occurred behind the LOS and was prior to K's first touch -therefore is not PSK; so, if the RTK is not accepted, FT applies.   (I thinK....)

Right answer, wrong reason.

First touching is negated by two things: a foul by R AFTER touching the kick (accepted or not), or the acceptance of ANY foul on the play (PSK or behind the line have nothing to do with it).

So here, if K declines the foul, R will take the spot of first touching, as nothing would negate that option.  If K accepts the foul, it's 4th and 5 from the R45.

Declined:  R's ball, 1 & 10, R35
Accepted: K's ball, 4 & 5, R45

Are you sure it wasn't ROUGHING the kicker?  Of course, with only a 15 yard punt, he isn't much of a "kicker" at all.

[bama_stripes]

TD for R, 'Bama?

Reading is fundamental.  Keyboarding is not.

[Curious]

TD for R, 'Bama?

4/5 for K from R-45 or 1/10 for K from R-35. R's foul occurred behind the LOS and was prior to K's first touch -therefore is not PSK; so, if the RTK is not accepted, FT applies.   (I thinK....)

Right answer, wrong reason.

First touching is negated by two things: a foul by R AFTER touching the kick (accepted or not), or the acceptance of ANY foul on the play (PSK or behind the line have nothing to do with it).

So here, if K declines the foul, R will take the spot of first touching, as nothing would negate that option.  If K accepts the foul, it's 4th and 5 from the R45.

Declined:  R's ball, 1 & 10, R35
Accepted: K's ball, 4 & 5, R45

Are you sure it wasn't ROUGHING the kicker?  Of course, with only a 15 yard punt, he isn't much of a "kicker" at all.

Ain't that what I said?

[Curious]

Ain't that what I said?

My bad!  I guess I went to the same typing school as 'Bama.  I MEANT 4/5 for K from R-45 or 1/10 for R at spot of FT

[Atlanta Blue]

Excusing your typo, my concern was this part of your answer:

R's foul occurred behind the LOS and was prior to K's first touch -therefore is not PSK;

Whether R's foul was PSK or not is meaningless. 

EXAMPLE:  R holds K's gunner as they come down the field.  That's a PSK foul.  But it does not negate R's option for first touching unless it is accepted.

The location of R's foul is also meaningless.  EXAMPLE:  R holds the punter after the kick, preventing him from moving toward the short punt.  The foul was behind the LOS, but it doesn't negate first touching if it's declined.

The fact that R's foul came before K's first touching is meaningless.  EXAMPLE: K touches the ball at the R35.  R31 then cheap shots K from behind.  Then R32 picks up the rolling punt and runs with it.  If K declines that foul, R still has the option of first touching.

The only thing that's important is the TIME of R's foul: it didn't come after R touched the ball.  Any foul by R after that negates the first touching option, as does ANY accepted foul by anyone during the play.

[Curious]

Excusing your typo, my concern was this part of your answer:

Whether R's foul was PSK or not is meaningless. 

EXAMPLE:  R holds K's gunner as they come down the field.  That's a PSK foul.  But it does not negate R's option for first touching unless it is accepted.

The location of R's foul is also meaningless.  EXAMPLE:  R holds the punter after the kick, preventing him from moving toward the short punt.  The foul was behind the LOS, but it doesn't negate first touching if it's declined.

The fact that R's foul came before K's first touching is meaningless.  EXAMPLE: K touches the ball at the R35.  R31 then cheap shots K from behind.  Then R32 picks up the rolling punt and runs with it.  If K declines that foul, R still has the option of first touching.

The only thing that's important is the TIME of R's foul: it didn't come after R touched the ball.  Any foul by R after that negates the first touching option, as does ANY accepted foul by anyone during the play.

I agree on all counts, AB.  The only reason I mentioned PSK is that some of our comrades forget that R 's foul must be beyond the LOS to be enforced as such.

[Atlanta Blue]

I agree on all counts, AB.

I was sure you knew all of those things better than I.  It was just your wording I thought might confuse others.

[Curious]

I was sure you knew all of those things better than I.  It was just your wording I thought might confuse others.

I do sometimes suffer with "paralysis in analysis".

[Ralph Damren]

I figured that this would get you guys stirred up a tad . This play caused a rule change way last century as any foul on the opposition was automatically declined when a TD was scored. By the then rule, R would get the ball under first touching  . Good job, guys - where 'Bama took the first swing at it, here's an Alabama non-football question : In the 1960 Nixon / Kennedy election , the way Alabama counted their popular votes was a deciding factor on who held the popular majority...how so ?  PS : AB, I've got some used snow -treads

[Atlanta Blue]

PS : AB, I've got some used snow -treads

Unless they have track spikes, they aren't going to help on ice!

We're battening down the hatches today.  This one could get ugly.  Ice storms usually mean power outages.  I can deal with almost anything if I still have power.  If you don't see me posting for a few days, you'll know we have returned to the days of modern day Maine, where we mail in our posts!   

[HLinNC]

Ice storms usually mean power outages.

All the more reason to bury power lines.  When I lived up in Boone, my power rarely went out.  Now between CP&L nee' Progress Energy nee' Duke Energy's exterior hung lines and the over-hooked customer base feeding off our mains, my lights flicker almost daily in GOOD weather.

[Rulesman]

AB - you can NEVER, EVER go wrong investing in a generator. You can get all you need to make do for about $800 bucks.

[Ralph Damren]

Unless they have track spikes, they aren't going to help on ice!

We're battening down the hatches today.  This one could get ugly.  Ice storms usually mean power outages.  I can deal with almost anything if I still have power.  If you don't see me posting for a few days, you'll know we have returned to the days of modern day Maine, where we mail in our posts!   

Good luck ,AB, ice storms usually spawn power outages which can spawn frozen pipes and the like. At least you'll warm up quickly (I hope) as ice goes well with bourbon, a roll of postage stamps, a #6 lead pencil and you'll be able to stay in touch with the outside world !

[stevestod]

Good Luck AB, In Vermont it would be another day in paradise, but we would get another inch of snow on top of the ice.

[bama_stripes]

In the 1960 Nixon / Kennedy election , the way Alabama counted their popular votes was a deciding factor on who held the popular majority...how so ?  PS : AB, I've got some used snow -treads

I believe it had something to do with unpledged electors, but I was in elementary school then & was more concerned about the winner of the upcoming football game against Ga Tech.

[Ralph Damren]

Excellent job, 'Bama ! On the Alabama ballot back then you voted directy for the 11 Electors, of which 6 were pledged to vote for the D canidate (Kennedy) and 5 were not and voted for the then Dixiecrat, Robert Byrd. In compiling the state's popular votes (a "state's rights" perogitive) , all the votes that were recieved for the unpledged electors were counted for Kennedy, giving him the national majority of the popular vote. Had they been counted for a third canidate, Nixon would have held the national majority....... I wish we had the new rules to argue about

[ttown44]

In NCAA, I believe there is an exception for this.  I'm not sure if the same is true for NFHS.  Please let me know if this is true in NFHS as well.  If K declines the penalty, then the first touching will kick in and give R the ball.  The exception comes with the score where they can accept the penalty and have the enforcement on the PAT or the succeeding kickoff.