Author Topic: Rule 10-2-5  (Read 40250 times)

0 Members and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 2374
  • FAN REACTION: +312/-29
Re: Rule 10-2-5
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2014, 03:28:19 PM »
Bossman72 - I like your format but I would need to include "cancel on a foul per foul basis" as the NCAA version (which cancels all fouls on both teams) has been proposed twice over the last couple of years but failed as some felt the team with more fouls was going unpunished. Thanks for the suggestions and I'm sure we'll find something that fits without becoming too complex.

I like that better than the NCAA rule too.  Here is my revised part (a)

ART 1: Dead ball fouls are enforced separately and in the order of occurrence. 
(a) When there are 15 yard dead ball fouls (or live ball treated as dead ball fouls) committed by each team, and before the Referee's announcement for these fouls has started, each 15 yard foul for one team will cancel a 15 foul for the other team.  Any remaining 15 yard fouls will be enforced.
(b) 5 and 10 yard fouls are still enforced separately and in the order of occurrence and would never cancel with a 15 yard foul.

wvoref

  • Guest
Re: Rule 10-2-5
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2014, 05:16:54 PM »
How about something to the effect of:  Only the net difference in yards will be marked off after considering all dead ball fouls.  That would eliminate half the distance discrepencies and the possibility of awarding A a first down even if the final enforcement ends up behind the previous spot.

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: Rule 10-2-5
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2014, 07:02:10 AM »
How about something to the effect of:  Only the net difference in yards will be marked off after considering all dead ball fouls.  That would eliminate half the distance discrepencies and the possibility of awarding A a first down even if the final enforcement ends up behind the previous spot.
Don't like the "net difference" wording.

1.  Some people have no idea what that means.
2.  Could be interpreted still accounting for half the distance penalties.  Example: A runs to the B10, dead ball PF on B, followed on one by A.  The yardage penalty for B is 5 yards (half the distance), while the yardage penalty for A is 15, so the "net" is -10 for A, which doesn't solve our problem.

Much simpler to say the equal number of penalties will offset.

The only thing I don't like about Bossman's wording is "before the Referee's starts his announcement".  Why not make it until the RFP?  If the R starts his announcement and then there is more crap between the teams, it should still be part of the same dead ball period.

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 5138
  • FAN REACTION: +875/-28
  • SEE IT-THINK IT-CALL IT
Re: Rule 10-2-5
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2014, 07:18:25 AM »
"Before the referee starts his announcement..." is part of the NCAA rule to prevent a crazed coach / player / whoever from getting a "freebie" where dueling dead balls would all cancel regardless of the number. Where our proposal cancels on a pro rata basis, the coach / player / whoever would pay ^flag. IMHO, RFP would serve as a good benchmark. Great suggestions, guys. tiphat:

Offline Magician

  • *
  • Posts: 1084
  • FAN REACTION: +257/-8
Re: Rule 10-2-5
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2014, 10:52:09 AM »
I have no problem with the NCAA version of cancelling all dead ball fouls if committed by both teams before the R announcement.  It's very rare for one team to have more than another and they are all usually related when it does happen.  The false start/PF combination would only happen when a defender reacts and tees off on a guy.  If the act is flagrant enough you could eject the guy.

The NCAA enforcement is more expedient and usually results in the same spot as the NFHS enforcement.  I don't feel strongly either way, but trying to only cancel some but not all or a net yardage difference is to complicated for something that doesn't happen that often.

wvoref

  • Guest
Re: Rule 10-2-5
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2014, 12:26:46 PM »
Don't know how many of them are still reading this thread but I would be interested in the rationale behind the negative votes cast. Do they see a problem with this change or just prefer the status quo.  And I still prefer only canceling the yardage on an equivalence basis. Otherwise you could up with the situation where B commits late hit. a retaliates then one of the coaches loudly comments on your ancestry. Yes he would end up with his first UNC but no yardage. I prefer netting out the yardage and enforcing whatever is left over.

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 2374
  • FAN REACTION: +312/-29
Re: Rule 10-2-5
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2014, 01:27:50 PM »
I incorrectly voted no, so the poll is skewed by 1 vote. Haha

Offline Rulesman

  • Past Keeper of the Keys
  • Refstripes Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • FAN REACTION: +65535/-2
  • Live like tomorrow never comes.
Re: Rule 10-2-5
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2014, 03:09:27 PM »
I incorrectly voted no, so the poll is skewed by 1 vote. Haha
That's your story and you're sticking to it?  ;D
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 4844
  • FAN REACTION: +344/-1000
Re: Rule 10-2-5
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2014, 03:31:22 PM »
Is it necessary?  Absolutely, as the current rule is inherently unfair. 

"Absolutely necessary", perhaps just a tad overstated.  "Unfair", perhaps in certain situations, but the primary lesson, and the message being taught is "Don't Retaliate".  We have been telling coaches, teams and players for over 100 years, "Don't be the 2nd guy".  That's an important message, because that's exactly how brawls and riots get started, after which the critique shifts from being fair or unfair to what we coulda/shoulda done to prevent what may have unfolded. 

When we get to the point, that a player knows he can respond ALL HE WANTS, and the worst that can happen is he loses a benefit, he wasn't really expecting anyway, we're all going to be in for trouble.  Penalties are not supposed to be fair, they are supposed to teach players that there are serious consequences for behaving badly.  There is supposed to be enough pain to get the player's attention and convince him NOT to commit the foul. 

Football is both a physical and emotional game.  A natural reaction to "getting popped" is to pop back, and the penalty provided for popping back has to be serious enough to make a player hesitate in doing so, rather than react. 

A while ago, we changed the rule for USC fouls, by A, during a scoring play, to be assessed as Dead Ball fouls, resulting in the score NOT being affected.  Has that reduced taunting?  Perhaps somewhat, but much likely not nearly as much as taking points off the board would have accomplished, by enforcment as a live ball foul.  There the prime motivation for not being stupid would come from teammates, rather than relying on some inner concern about violating a rule.

The basic idea of penalties, is to reduce the benefit (which sometimes siply includes personal self gratification) of committing the foul. 

Offline Magician

  • *
  • Posts: 1084
  • FAN REACTION: +257/-8
Re: Rule 10-2-5
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2014, 04:31:46 PM »
I voted no because I think netting out the personal fouls is not necessary.  Either leave it as is (NFHS example) or cancel all of them (NCAA example).  This is not something that needs to be overly complicated.

Offline bama_stripes

  • *
  • Posts: 3196
  • FAN REACTION: +126/-29
Re: Rule 10-2-5
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2014, 07:33:58 AM »
Ralph, I think most of us on this board are firmly opposed to letting USCs & DBPFs go unpunished.  The "pro rata" enforcement makes sense.  Allowing a "minor" foul to offset a USC or DBPF doesn't.

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 5138
  • FAN REACTION: +875/-28
  • SEE IT-THINK IT-CALL IT
Re: Rule 10-2-5
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2014, 09:41:24 AM »
Ralph, I think most of us on this board are firmly opposed to letting USCs & DBPFs go unpunished.  The "pro rata" enforcement makes sense.  Allowing a "minor" foul to offset a USC or DBPF doesn't.
I totally agree, and that could be corrected - as several have suggested - by keeping fouls after RFP to be in order of occurrence. 5 yard dead ball fouls prior to RFP (DOG, IS & the like) shouldn't cancel with a 15 yarder either but the verbage needs to be simple so the the newest of officials and coaches can understand. We've got until November to think about it and I'm sure we'll be able to come up with something.

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: Rule 10-2-5
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2014, 12:24:22 PM »
Penalties are not supposed to be fair,
Of course they should be fair, and even more importantly, they should be equitable.  On 60% of the field, this is not equitable, A is penalized differently than B for the same infraction, and that should never be the case.

Offline Curious

  • *
  • Posts: 1314
  • FAN REACTION: +36/-50
Re: Rule 10-2-5
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2014, 12:47:13 PM »
Conceptually, I'm okay with "off-sets"; but would avoid the "R's announcement" wording - since most of us (I would assume) don't "make announcements".  Before the RFP would keep it consistent for everyone. :)

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 4844
  • FAN REACTION: +344/-1000
Re: Rule 10-2-5
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2014, 05:37:36 PM »
Of course they should be fair, and even more importantly, they should be equitable.  On 60% of the field, this is not equitable, A is penalized differently than B for the same infraction, and that should never be the case.

Where does the notion that fairness or equiry has anything to do with balancing penalties.  Rules relating to fouls have specific penalties, that are EQUALLY and FAIRLY applied to ANYONE who viollates the specific rule, and earns the designated penalty.  One bad behavior is never justified by another bad behavior, and stands under it's own weight.

Whoever "does the crime, does the time", if one penalty calls for 15 yards and another calls for 15 yards, but because of where on the field it is enforced from, as long as that option applies to ANYONE earning the same penalty, in the same circumstances, we have absloute fairness and equity.

Offline VALJ

  • *
  • Posts: 2466
  • FAN REACTION: +95/-15
Re: Rule 10-2-5
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2014, 09:34:46 AM »
Would it make sense to add a comment to part 1 that any disqualifications due to those 15-yard fouls that are cancelled out would still apply?  I could see a coach (and some officials) thinking that, since the foul cancels out, we wouldn't DQ a player for said foul.

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 5138
  • FAN REACTION: +875/-28
  • SEE IT-THINK IT-CALL IT
Re: Rule 10-2-5
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2014, 09:56:46 AM »
Would it make sense to add a comment to part 1 that any disqualifications due to those 15-yard fouls that are cancelled out would still apply?  I could see a coach (and some officials) thinking that, since the foul cancels out, we wouldn't DQ a player for said foul.
Live ball offsetting fouls or fouls declined would still DQ a player, so I don't think it would become an issue. Possibly Incorporated into a case play.

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: Rule 10-2-5
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2014, 03:02:55 PM »
Would it make sense to add a comment to part 1 that any disqualifications due to those 15-yard fouls that are cancelled out would still apply?  I could see a coach (and some officials) thinking that, since the foul cancels out, we wouldn't DQ a player for said foul.
OK, just say "the yardage portion of the penalties will offset".....

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 4844
  • FAN REACTION: +344/-1000
Re: Rule 10-2-5
« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2014, 04:49:59 PM »
Would it make sense to add a comment to part 1 that any disqualifications due to those 15-yard fouls that are cancelled out would still apply?  I could see a coach (and some officials) thinking that, since the foul cancels out, we wouldn't DQ a player for said foul.

Wow, recognizing retaliation as an acceptable response to being fouled, may be opening a door nobody wants to see what's behind.

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 5138
  • FAN REACTION: +875/-28
  • SEE IT-THINK IT-CALL IT
Re: Rule 10-2-5
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2014, 07:12:36 AM »
The proposed change wouldn't in any way impact who gets tossed and who doesn't. There are situations now with live ball fouls where the penalty could be declined but the perpetrator ejected. Examples : (1) During the play Bubba, the snapper, punches Tugboat, the nose guard, in the future family production region. (2) Lefty, the QB, while laughing throws an interception. (3) Scooter, the D-back, returns for a touchdown. (4) Tugboat's gal, the prom queen, in lieu of his injury, now dates Scooter. RULING : B declines penalty to keep the score (8-2-3). Bubba tossed. ..... During the play Bubba & Tugboat regress to a game of punching bag. RULING : Penalties offset - replay the down - both Bubba & Tugboat tossed. IMHO we should use the term "cancel" in lieu of offset.

Offline VALJ

  • *
  • Posts: 2466
  • FAN REACTION: +95/-15
Re: Rule 10-2-5
« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2014, 07:30:12 AM »
OK, just say "the yardage portion of the penalties will cancel".....

That works, after fixing your post as Ralph suggests..  Not implicitly saying anything about disqualifications - I like it.

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 5138
  • FAN REACTION: +875/-28
  • SEE IT-THINK IT-CALL IT
Re: Rule 10-2-5
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2014, 09:29:11 AM »
Thanks ,guys,  ^talk for your support on this. For the 2/3 of you that feel it to be a good change, I'll plan to submit it for a change. It's been on my "bucket list" for a few years and now will move it to the top. I appreciate all the suggestions as to verbage and plan to use them in crafting my proposal. tiphat: