Loose ball plays

[IA Linesman]

Newbie question here so please take it easy on me.

I understand there can be multiple running plays in a down but only one loose ball play.

1st and 10 from B's 40.  A completes a pass at B 25, then the receiver subsequently fumbles, A80 holds (B20) (preventing B from recovering ball) and A recovers and advances the ball to B15.

Taking a stab at my own question I would step it off from the 20 (all but one principle) and have either 1 and 10 from B30 or 2 and inches from B30 depending on how tall my U is.   

Although there was a fumble the pass was the loose ball.  I guess a "better" situation is if the QB fumbles, hold takes place, completed pass.   WAIT I think I just thought my way through it.  If the penalty is accepted the second loose ball "Doesn't" happen.  Somebody give me a 

[Ump33]

Newbie question here so please take it easy on me. - You are on the right path, but your process needs some tweaking.

I understand there can be multiple running plays in a down but only one loose ball play. - Correct

1st and 10 from B's 40.  A completes a pass at B 25, then the receiver subsequently fumbles, A80 holds (B20) (preventing B from recovering ball) and A recovers and advances the ball to B15. - Once the pass was complete, we now have a Running Play. If the fumble happened at the B25, mark it with a Bean Bag to identify the End of the Run. Since the Hold happened at the B20, the Enforcement Spot would be the EOR B's 25 ... A 1st & 5 from the B-35

Taking a stab at my own question I would step it off from the 20 (all but one principle) and have either 1 and 10 from B30 or 2 and inches from B30 depending on how tall my U is. 

Although there was a fumble the pass was the loose ball.  I guess a "better" situation is if the QB fumbles, hold takes place, completed pass.   WAIT I think I just thought my way through it.  If the penalty is accepted the second loose ball "Doesn't" happen.  Somebody give me a  - Remember, a Loose Ball Play includes "all the action" that happened prior to the Loose Ball Play. In your revised play, the Forward Pass is your Loose Ball Play and it includes the QB's fumble, his recovery and the Holding Foul.

[Bwest]

A completes a pass at B 25, then the receiver subsequently fumbles, A80 holds (B20) (preventing B from recovering ball) and A recovers and advances the ball to B15.

Also keep in mind that during a fumble players may "push or pull" each other.

[AlUpstateNY]

Also keep in mind that during a fumble players may "push or pull" each other.

With some specific restrictions, NF 2-2-4: An Offensive player may use his hands or arms:(c) to push, pull or ward off an opponent when the ball is loose if he may legally touch or possess the ball if such contact is not pass interference, a personal foul or illegal use of the hands.

NF 2-2-5: A Defensive player may, (b) Push, pull or ward of an opponent in an actual attempt to get at the runner or a loose ball if such contact is not pass interference, a personal foul or illegal use of the hands."

[FLAHL]

I've never understood wording in 2-2-4 and 2-2-5.  How is it possible to "pull an opponent" without that being illegal use of hands?

[AlUpstateNY]

I've never understood wording in 2-2-4 and 2-2-5.  How is it possible to "pull an opponent" without that being illegal use of hands?

My understanding is, the key is WHY a player is "pulling an opponent", if the effort is to secure possession of a ball, an offensive player, "may legally touch or possess if such contact is not pass interference, a personal foul or illegal use of the hands" or a defensive player is specifically allowed to, " Push, pull or ward of an opponent in an actual attempt to get at the runner or a loose ball if such contact is not pass interference, a personal foul or illegal use of the hands". Far greater leeway is afforded players under these limited and specific circumstances and objectives, than is otherwise allowable.

Being aware of the unfolding game condition to observe and determine if the action viewed meets these exception criteria is key to making the appropriate judgment.

[HLinNC]

In other words, it's kind of an exception to th IUH rules.

[FLAHL]

Maybe these examples will help me.

1) QB A12 fumbles the ball behind the LoS and the ball bounces back toward A's goal line. A50 and B75 give chase, with A50 a half step ahead. As they get near the ball, B75 grabs A50 by the shirt and pulls him backwards. B75 falls on the ball.  Legal or illegal?
2) Similar situation, only this time B75 is a half step ahead of A50. As they near the ball, A50 gives B75 a two-handed push in the back that causes B75 to overrun the ball. A50 falls on the ball.  Legal or illegal?

In both cases, A and B are pulling or pushing in an attempt to get the loose ball. In both cases their contact is otherwise illegal.

[bossman72]

Newbie question here so please take it easy on me.

I understand there can be multiple running plays in a down but only one loose ball play.

1st and 10 from B's 40.  A completes a pass at B 25, then the receiver subsequently fumbles, A80 holds (B20) (preventing B from recovering ball) and A recovers and advances the ball to B15.

Taking a stab at my own question I would step it off from the 20 (all but one principle) and have either 1 and 10 from B30 or 2 and inches from B30 depending on how tall my U is.   

Although there was a fumble the pass was the loose ball.  I guess a "better" situation is if the QB fumbles, hold takes place, completed pass.   WAIT I think I just thought my way through it.  If the penalty is accepted the second loose ball "Doesn't" happen.  Somebody give me a 

There are 2 "plays" during this down.

The loose ball play starts with the snap and ends with the completion of the pass.  Anything that happened in that interval you would use the previous spot as your BASIC spot.

The run play starts when the pass is caught and ends when the ball is recovered.  Even though the ball is "loose", this is a run play (since it is beyond the LOS).  Anything that happened in that interval (like your holding foul) your BASIC spot is the end of the run, which is where the fumble happened (which is why we bean bag it).  Since the hold happened in front of the basic spot, you will use the basic spot to enforce the foul.  This is the all-but-one principle

I don't like how the rule books use the word "play".  This confuses new officials with "the down."  A better word would be "status."  Like, the ball was in "loose ball status" or "run status".  This conveys the message a lot better than "play"

[Atlanta Blue]

I don't like how the rule books use the word "play".  This confuses new officials with "the down."  A better word would be "status."  Like, the ball was in "loose ball status" or "run status".  This conveys the message a lot better than "play"

Except that "status" of the ball can be "loose" while in "run status"!

[Ralph Damren]

A simple way of understanding the difference is : In a loose ball play, the ball has to become loose behind  the LOS or on K's free kick line. In a running play, the ball becomes loose downfield. If you have "fumble happy" players, you may have several running plays, We had a challenging one several years ago : (1) K1 kicks off from K-40; (2) R1 fields kick @ R-5; (3) R2 levels K2 @ 50 for PF ; (4) R1 fumbles @ R-20; (5) R3 scoops up the fumble @ R-25 and runs for TD. You make the call........

[VALJ]

Basic spot is the end of the run at R-20.  Since the foul happened in advance of the basic spot, we go back to R-20 and enforce half the distance, with R having first down at R-10. 

The USC foul on the R coach for taking a touchdown off the board, if it happens, would give us R 1/10 @ the R 5 yard line. 

[Atlanta Blue]

If the PF on R2 happened AFTER R1 fielded the ball at the 5, then I agree with VALJ.

If the PF on R2 happened BEFORE the ball was fielded by R1, then previous spot enforcement (foul during a loose ball play).

Even if I'm K, I hope you rule that the ball was fielded first.  I would rather they have to start from their own 10.  Unless I'm trying an onside kick, a rekick from the R45 is just going to be a touchback anyway.

[Ralph Damren]

We had three possible scenarios depending on WHEN the foul occurred : (1) Before R1 fielded the kick = loose ball, previous spot; (2) after B1 fielded kick, but before B3 recovered fumble = spot of fumble, marked by bean bag; (3) after B3 recovered fumble, but before he entered EZ = spot of foul under ABO. The flagging official was adamant that it occurred during the first run and two of us had bean bags marking the spot of the fumble. AB & VALJ nailed it =1st & 10 from R-10. R's coach did call time and asked : " Holy cow, that seems like a very long penalty ? " I explained that where we halved the distance it was only 10 yards. I'm not sure he understood.

[VALJ]

If the PF on R2 happened AFTER R1 fielded the ball at the 5, then I agree with VALJ.

If the PF on R2 happened BEFORE the ball was fielded by R1, then previous spot enforcement (foul during a loose ball play).

Even if I'm K, I hope you rule that the ball was fielded first.  I would rather they have to start from their own 10.  Unless I'm trying an onside kick, a rekick from the R45 is just going to be a touchback anyway.

I agree with you.  I was working off of the events occurring in the order that they were posted. 

And yeah, it's a heck of a thing to have a TD taken off the board on such a momentum-swinging play.  Did Bubba commit a clip or grab the guy by the face mask?  You don't see a heck of a lot of 15 yarders at initial contact in the front line of a kick return.

And did it cost Bubba his date with the Homecoming Queen?

[Ralph Damren]

Bubba leveled unsuspecting K2 from behind and probably could have been tossed . Forced to stand next to his  coach for the remainder of the game after his "90 yard penalty" (coach's perception) would have been  a fate worse then deserved . Bubba was not Prom Queen dating meterial