Post scrimmage kick

[copedaddy]

Is offsides by the defense eligible for post scrimmage kick enforcement?

[rickref]

No. No way you can be offsides during the kick. This would be a previous spot enforcement.

[copedaddy]

What about running into the kicker? As in the Texas game last week.

[psv]

9-1-16 specifies 15 yards from the previous spot and automatic first down for roughing. 

Running in the kicker... probably not as well.

[Welpe]

Running into also specifies previous spot enforcement, same reference.

[DallasLJ]

Previous spot if the foul occurred before the kick.  So, defensive offsides would have to be before the kick (at the snap) and not eligible for PSK enforcement. 

[TXMike]

What about running into the kicker? As in the Texas game last week.

That was pretty funny right there.  They did the "tack on" (enforced as PSKE actually) on one running into and then a short time later enforced from prev spot. Wonder who got in their ear in between?

From Box Score:
Ucla  1-10 at Ucla08 UCLA drive start at 10:25.
Ucla  1-10 at Ucla08 Starks, Nate rush for 1 yard to the UCLA9 (Hicks, Jordan;Edmond, Steve).
Ucla  2-9 at Ucla09 Neuheisel, Jerry pass incomplete to Iese, Nate (Cottrell, Bryce).
Ucla  3-9 at Ucla09 Neuheisel, Jerry pass complete to Perkins, Paul for 14 yards to the UCLA23, 1ST DOWN UCLA (Hall, Jason).
Ucla  1-10 at Ucla23 Perkins, Paul rush for loss of 3 yards to the UCLA20 (Edmond, Steve).
Ucla  2-13 at Ucla20 Perkins, Paul rush for loss of 1 yard to the UCLA19 (Hicks, Jordan;Cottrell, Bryce), PENALTY UCLA illegal formation declined.
Ucla  3-14 at Ucla19 Neuheisel, Jerry sacked for loss of 7 yards to the UCLA12 (Hall, Jason).
Ucla  4-21 at Ucla12 Mengel, Matt punt 45 yards to the UT43, fair catch by Shipley, Jaxon, PENALTY UT roughing passer 5 yards to the UT38, 1st and 10, UT ball on UT38.

Ucla  1-10 at Ucla25 UCLA drive start at 02:01.
Ucla  1-10 at Ucla25 Neuheisel, Jerry pass complete to Fuller, Devin for 2 yards to the UCLA27 (Hall, Jason).
Ucla  2-8 at Ucla27 Neuheisel, Jerry pass complete to Fuller, Devin for 5 yards to the UCLA32 (Colbert, Adrian).
Ucla  3-3 at Ucla32 Perkins, Paul rush for 1 yard to the UCLA33 (Jackson, Desmond).
Ucla  4-2 at Ucla33 Timeout Texas, clock 00:50.
Ucla  4-2 at Ucla33 Mengel, Matt punt 29 yards to the UT38, fair catch by Shipley, Jaxon, PENALTY UT roughing passer (Hall, Jason) 5 yards to the UCLA38, 1ST DOWN UCLA, NO PLAY.

[centexsports]

Two things:  The new change in PSK procedures says that the kick begins at the snap.  So based on the fact that offsides occures at the snap it should be PSK enforcement.

Second: "A" kicks from their 30 into a 25 mph wind.   The ball hits on the right hash on the A-40 and bounds backward to the A-30 where it is downed by A.  During the kick, B25 holds at the 50 yard line (I don't know why).   Where is the penalty enforced from? 

[Kalle]

Two things:  The new change in PSK procedures says that the kick begins at the snap.  So based on the fact that offsides occures at the snap it should be PSK enforcement.

Second: "A" kicks from their 30 into a 25 mph wind.   The ball hits on the right hash on the A-40 and bounds backward to the A-30 where it is downed by A.  During the kick, B25 holds at the 50 yard line (I don't know why).   Where is the penalty enforced from?

First, offside is a previous spot foul so it does not qualify for PSKE (PSKE only applies to basic spot fouls).

Second, this is a kick that crosses the neutral zone and is untouched by team B beyond the NZ. Thus, the ball belongs to team B and all PSKE conditions are met. 1st and 10 for team B at B-40 (basic spot is A-30).

[mishatx]

The kick play begins at the snap.  The change in PSK procedures was to remove the word "play" from the rule about PSK enforcment, now it says "during the kick". The kick begins, I presume, at the kick.

Your second play qualifies for PSK since the kick crossed the NZ and Team B will next snap it.  Since the foul is behind the PSK spot (A-30), It will be enforced from the sport of the foul, the 50.

[Legacy Zebra]

While the offside example doesn't work, it does bring up a contradiction between the rules and the ARs. The rule (10-2-3-b-3) says "the foul occurs before the end of the kick." But AR 10-2-3-VII says that a hold before the kick des not qualify for PSKE. If it's before the kick it is obviously before the end of the kick, so why does it not qualify?

[centexsports]

RR handbook specifically says that the kick starts at the snap because otherwise a penalty on the defense nullifies the defensive stand by team B that should cause the kick.

The only fouls penalized from the previous spot are PF (ie head slap by defensive linemen), leaping over up backs or either running into or roughing the kicker.

[Kalle]

RR handbook specifically says that the kick starts at the snap because otherwise a penalty on the defense nullifies the defensive stand by team B that should cause the kick.

RR handbook is not a rule book nor does it always contain approved play situations. If you really think that an offside qualifies, you can always ask Redding for a ruling (alternatively, as this is the Texas forum and not NCAA, there might be a state rules interpreter?).

The only fouls penalized from the previous spot are PF (ie head slap by defensive linemen), leaping over up backs or either running into or roughing the kicker.

Please read the penalty clauses for those fouls. Personal fouls are basic spot fouls so they do qualify for PSKE if they happen during the kick. Offside, substitution infraction, leaping and running into / roughing are all previous spot enforcement, so they do not qualify for PSKE.

[Kalle]

While the offside example doesn't work, it does bring up a contradiction between the rules and the ARs. The rule (10-2-3-b-3) says "the foul occurs before the end of the kick." But AR 10-2-3-VII says that a hold before the kick des not qualify for PSKE. If it's before the kick it is obviously before the end of the kick, so why does it not qualify?

I don't think there is a contradiction. The rule starts with "applies only to fouls by team B during a scrimmage kick". It then goes on to further define that the foul must be before end of the kick, which is a bit redundant but not in conflict.

[mishatx]

The redundant piece is in there because it wasn't edited out from when the rule was the PSKE fouls must be during a "scrimmage kick play" and more than three yards from the NZ. 

Of course, I guess even then it was redundant. 

[TXMike]

Not sure how you could think DOF would qualify for PSKE after reading RR's bulletin (attached).  He specifically talks about fouls that have specific enforcement spots specified in the penalty as not qualifying for PSKE

[attachment deleted by admin]

[centexsports]

I do not get his bulletin but p176 of Football Rules Study Guide says: "Quote" Recall (2-30-3) that a scrimmage kick play is the interval between the snap and when a scrimmage kick is caught, recovered, or becomes dead by rule.

Then three sentences before that it says: The rules for PSK enforcement provide a way for the team receiving the scrimmage kick to get possession of the football even if it committed a foul during the kick. 

[mishatx]

Those two statements are correct, but they are not necessarily related.

PSKE fouls must be basic spot fouls that occur during the kick, not the kick play.   Examples 2 and 3 in the bulletin TXMike posted illustrate the difference.

[TXMike]

I don't know a whole lot but one thing I do know is if Kalle says something, I am taking that to the bank.  (if I did not know better I would say that he is a pen-name for the good Dr Redding)   

[Kalle]

I do not get his bulletin but p176 of Football Rules Study Guide says: "Quote" Recall (2-30-3) that a scrimmage kick play is the interval between the snap and when a scrimmage kick is caught, recovered, or becomes dead by rule.

It seems to me that you may be confusing kick play with the kick. The kick play starts when the ball is snapped and ends when the ball is caught/recovered or becomes dead, but the kick starts when the ball is kicked and ends when the ball is caught/recovered or becomes dead. These are two different things, and it is important to know which is which when talking about PSKE.

With the old rules PSKE depended on the kick play and any foul after the snap and before the kick ended had a PSKE potential. The new rule change made PSKE dependent on the kick, so fouls before the ball is kicked can not qualify for PSKE.

So, with the old rules you could have argued (in my opinion wrongly) that a foul at the snap could qualify for PSKE, but with the new PSKE rule this argument is moot.

[centexsports]

Thank you for the clarification.   With all of the changes we work through, sometimes the details don't get noticed.   I have never penalized a defensive offside using PSK enforcement but in reading the notes, I did not differentiate kick play from kick,

[TxSkyBolt]

That's why this forum is invaluable.


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