PSK or Not

[Curious]

Good question from NCAA section - resulting in interesting philosophical discussion.  Obviously there are rule differences; but how say you based on Fed rules and "philosophy"?

4th and 7, punt formation, ball snapped and before (the ball is) kicked there's a holding on a gunner. What's the call?

Does it actually matter if the foul occurs before the ball is kicked (think rugby-style kick)?

Do you think this is PSK?  Explain why or why not. 




   
 

[GA Umpire]

Good question from NCAA section - resulting in interesting philosophical discussion.  Obviously there are rule differences; but how say you based on Fed rules and "philosophy"?

4th and 7, punt formation, ball snapped and before (the ball is) kicked there's a holding on a gunner. What's the call?

Does it actually matter if the foul occurs before the ball is kicked (think rugby-style kick)?

Do you think this is PSK?  Explain why or why not.


According to 2-16-2h, it meets the criteria of PSK.  As long as the foul was committed beyond the LOS, and the kick itself crossed the LOS, it matters not if the foul occurred before or after the ball is legally kicked.  And, of course, R has to be the next to put the ball in play.

[Atlanta Blue]

Under the original FED PSK rules (2003), this would not have qualified for PSK.  The "window" for PSK fouls started with the kick.  Thankfully, a "clarification" was made in 2004.  PSK now applies to any foul after the snap that meets the rest of the criteria.

[Ralph Damren]

The guys from Georgia nailed it. While 2-16-2h(3) is in the rule to primarily prevent roughing/running into the kicker from becoming a PSK foul, it would also apply here. It would be important for the flagger to note if the foul occurred beyond the expanded neutral zone.

Trivia tester : What is the largest state in area east of Mississippi and what is the smallest state west of the Mississippi ?

[Tom.OH]

The guys from Georgia nailed it. While 2-16-2h(3) is in the rule to primarily prevent roughing/running into the kicker from becoming a PSK foul, it would also apply here. It would be important for the flagger to note if the foul occurred beyond the expanded neutral zone.

Trivia tester : What is the largest state in area east of Mississippi and what is the smallest state west of the Mississippi ?

Largest state east New York
smallest state west Hawaii

[Rulesman]

Georgia and Hawaii, respectively.

[Ralph Damren]

Largest state east New York
smallest state west Hawaii

Half right,Tom, Georgia has NY beat by 10,000 sq. miles of land.

[Ralph Damren]

Georgia and Hawaii, respectively.

Congrats, Rulesman, you win the Kewpie Doll .

Follow up question: While Georgia is the largest state east of the Mississippi, it is only the 21st largest state in the Nation and only larger than 2 states west of the Mississippi. Hawaii is one...what's the other ?

[Atlanta Blue]

Well the second smallest state west of the Mississippi isn't ENTIRELY west of the Mississippi.  It's Louisiana.  If you need a state that is all west of the Mississippi, it would be Arkansas.

And while NY is "only" 10k sq miles smaller than Georgia, it's still only the 9th largest state east of the big river.

[Ralph Damren]

Good call, AB, although we both may have forgotton about Iowa as I believe the Mississippi forms their eastern border but doesn't intrude within the state.

[Atlanta Blue]

Iowa is west of the Mississippi, but it's bigger than both Louisiana and Arkansas.

[Ralph Damren]

Iowa is west of the Mississippi, but it's bigger than both Louisiana and Arkansas.

But NOT bigger than your fine state of Georgia !

[Curious]

The guys from Georgia nailed it. While 2-16-2h(3) is in the rule to primarily prevent roughing/running into the kicker from becoming a PSK foul, it would also apply here. It would be important for the flagger to note if the foul occurred beyond the expanded neutral zone.

Glad we're all in agreement rule-wise; but now let's talk about philosophy.  For you "Rs" out there, how much leeway (if any) do you give your wing-men when reporting the "where" of this type of foul?  With all deference to Ralph's comment regarding RTK, IMHO it seems  - philosophically - there is a sizeable difference in holding a gunner who is probably split 10 or 15 yards from the spot of the snap?

The ENZ is considered up to 2 yards beyond the LOS; so, if the foul occurs within this "belt", would you really enforce from the previous spot and give the ball back to K?  What if it occurred 1.9 yards from the LOS?.  Is there a major advantage for the defense if it occurs there or 2.1 yards beyond?

Is the spirit of of this rule really designed to split hairs in this situation?  Philosophically, and practically, what say ye (or y'all)?   

[Ralph Damren]

IMHO,the whereabouts of a holding call by R on a punt would/should fall into the "when in doubt" family and ruled to be downfield unless absolutely sure that it occurred behind the LOS. I've botched two PSK enforcements since it came to town (2003) and this was half of 'em :

  (1) 4th & 5 @50, K punts ; flag around 50 for holding on R; K rolled dead @R's 20; moved ball to R's 10 and gave it to them; a few plays later I began to ponder, "did the foul occur on/behind the LOS ;I later felt bad about my mistake until I realized that the coach made a mistake ,too - He thought I knew what I was talking about . K won the game.

  (2)  4th & 10 @50, K punts; R waves both hands & is  for invalid FC signal @ R's 30; punt lands untouched @ R's 32 and rolls dead @ R's 35; we mistakenly enforced the penalty from the end of kick -R's 35 while it should have been from R's 30 under ABO; I discovered this in post-game; I didn't feel as bad as I did on botch #1... . K also won the game.

 Morale of story : Remind the to remember where the foul occurred  -even if they don't need to.
                          Remind yourself to ask where the foul occurred, especially if you need to.

[Curious]

IMHO,the whereabouts of a holding call by R on a punt would/should fall into the "when in doubt" family and ruled to be downfield unless absolutely sure that it occurred behind the LOS.

I like your use of LOS; and I'd add: "rule downfield even if it's still in the ENZ but the gunner has gotten off the line cleanly!"{color]

Morale of story : Remind the to remember where the foul occurred  -even if they don't need to.
                          Remind yourself to ask where the foul occurred, especially if you need to.

ALWAYS: Who, what, when, and where

[Ralph Damren]

Good points, Curious, and "WHEN" is a very important factor in determining if it's a PSK enforcement. On punts that roll dead it's an easy call, but when there's action after the kick ends, it may become a challenge. We had this once :

  (1) K 4th & 10 @ 50, K punts;
  (2 or 3) R1 blocks below the waist @ R's 40;
  (3 or 2) R2 fields the punt @ R's 10 and returns to 50;
  (4)  herd gather..and discuss WHEN;
  (5) was adamant the foul occurred while the punt was airborne;
  (6) we gave R the ball @ R's 5.
  (7) R's coach wasn't happy....rarely are both coaches happy.

Footnote : Game video showed correct call and correct time of foul.
                Had the kick ended before the foul, the enforcement spot would have been R's 40
                under ABO.

[VALJ]

  (7) R's coach wasn't happy....rarely are both coaches happy.

Officiating is like standing between two five-year-olds holding one ice cream cone.