Invalid FC in R's ?

[sczeebra]

Would we have a saftey if R is standing in his end zone waving two arms regardless of where the scrimmage kick ends?

[HLinNC]

Why?

[riffraft]

Because it would be a PSK foul, so the basic spot is the end of the kick. However for PSK fouls by R behind the end of the kick are spot fouls. So if the Receiver giving the invalid fair catch signal is in the end zone the basic spot would be the end zone, so a safety

[goldsmi]

TB - ball became dead as soon as it crossed the plane of the goal line.

[Atlanta Blue]

The foul came before the ball became dead.  Technically, yes, it would be a safety.  But there isn't a chance in Hades anyone should be making that call.  Exactly what good does a fair catch signal, legal or illegal, do in the end zone?

Think context, and keep that flag in your pocket.

Answer on a test: safety
Answer on the field: nothing

[riffraft]

The foul came before the ball became dead.  Technically, yes, it would be a safety.  But there isn't a chance in Hades anyone should be making that call.  Exactly what good does a fair catch signal, legal or illegal, do in the end zone?

Think context, and keep that flag in your pocket.

Answer on a test: safety
Answer on the field: nothing

I agree. No way I am calling it, but answering HLinNC's question of why.

[Ralph Damren]

  Common sense rules pertaining to OP......

    (1) We can't "see" everything ;

    (2) R can't make a fair catch in its own end zone ;

    (3) This would be a good one not to "see" .

Possible response if K coach complains : " Coach, they can't even make a fair catch in there "

[prab]

Since R can not make a fair catch in his own end zone, why not interpret R's hand waving as an attempt to signal his teammates to stay away from the ball?  I realize that this is technically just another "cop out" but sometimes having more than one "cop out" available might be a good thing.

[Ralph Damren]

Since R can not make a fair catch in his own end zone, why not interpret R's hand waving as an attempt to signal his teammates to stay away from the ball?  I realize that this is technically just another "cop out" but sometimes having more than one "cop out" available might be a good thing.

IMHO, R could be waving to the Prom Queen . R could not use this excuse, however, if he was beyond the LOS and in the field of play....even if the Prom Queen waved back . However, R may feel the 5 yards would be well worth the Prom Queen's attention .

[bkdow]

Where is the PSK enforced?  End of the kick or spot of the foul or ABO?

[AlUpstateNY]

Where is the PSK enforced?  End of the kick or spot of the foul or ABO?

Often, being overly technically correct is nowhere near all that it might be cracked up to be.  There is ABSOLUTELY no VALID reason for a player EVER to make a FC in his EZ.  Doing so can ONLY be an inconsequential mental error by an interscholastic (HS) student athlete, that provides no benefit, or advantage, fair or unfair. 

Common sense, and the clear spirit of "preventive officiating" both suggest handling the situation as a "teaching moment" to safeguard against any future similar mental lapses is far more appropriate remedy than an excessive penalty for an act that is purely inconsequential.

[TampaSteve]

Ah but to stir the pot:
How about: Those HS kids that watch the NFL & NCAA players give the 'incomplete' signal on punt plays?

[Jim D]

Anincomplete or 'poison/peter' signal is not a fair catch signal.  Just because a player is in position to receive a kick doesn't mean he has to stand at attention with his arms at his sides.  He just needs to be careful that whatever he's doing - shading his eyes, signalling poison, scratching himself - does not resemble a fair catch signal.

[FLAHL]

Just because a player is in position to receive a kick doesn't mean he has to stand at attention with his arms at his sides.  He just needs to be careful that whatever he's doing - shading his eyes, signalling poison, scratching himself - does not resemble a fair catch signal.

This is one of those situations where the rule book isn't doing us any favors.  According to the book, keeping the receiver's arms at his sides is actually a pretty good idea because:

“ART. 4 . . . An invalid fair-catch signal is any (emphasis added)
signal by a receiver before the kick is caught or recovered:
a. That does not meet the requirements of a valid signal.”

So if a coach who knows this rule asks about the "poison signal" we have to say "Well coach, I know the rule says ANY signal, but that's not what it really means."
Or, we throw the flag and look bad because "everybody knows" the receiver meant Stay Away.

[Jim D]

"So if a coach who knows this rule asks about the "poison signal" we have to say "Well coach, I know the rule says ANY signal, but that's not what it really means."

I would have no problem saying that to a coach.  It would probably come out like "Seriously, coach?  You want me to flag that?   Not a chance."

[AlUpstateNY]

Ah but to stir the pot:
How about: Those HS kids that watch the NFL & NCAA players give the 'incomplete' signal on punt plays?

Quite often, insisting on continually stirring the pot, only serves to absolutely ruin an otherwise satisfying meal, for no worthwhile reason. 

As for those HS athletes (and some coaches) who concentrate excessively on emulating their heroes,   that's why wing and deep officials are so skilled in knowing when to counsel players, indiscreetly, using their "little voice" in a positively constructive manner.

[fudilligas]

This is one of those situations where the rule book isn't doing us any favors.  According to the book, keeping the receiver's arms at his sides is actually a pretty good idea because:

“ART. 4 . . . An invalid fair-catch signal is any (emphasis added)
signal by a receiver before the kick is caught or recovered:
a. That does not meet the requirements of a valid signal.”

So if a coach who knows this rule asks about the "poison signal" we have to say "Well coach, I know the rule says ANY signal, but that's not what it really means."  By giving that signal he may be influencing the kicking team coverage of the kick.
Or, we throw the flag and look bad because "everybody knows" the receiver meant Stay Away.

I don't have a problem with the receiver giving the "poison signal" until he picks up the ball and runs with it.  At that time I throw a flag for an invalid FC signal.  I consider that gaining and unfair advantage and should be penalized.   

[VALJ]

So if a coach who knows this rule asks about the "poison signal" we have to say "Well coach, I know the rule says ANY signal, but that's not what it really means."
Or, we throw the flag and look bad because "everybody knows" the receiver meant Stay Away.

"Are you telling me that wasn't an invalid signal?"
"Yes sir, that's exactly what I'm telling you."
"Would you flag us for that signal?"
"No sir, I would not."

Had this exact exchange with a coach two seasons ago when the other team's deep guy gave the incomplete signal to his teammates to tell them to stay away from the ball.

[Ralph Damren]

"Don't be a walking rule book waiting to happen" -full story on another post on another day. A possible response to K's inquiring coach:

   " Coach, that didn't give him or his team any advantage as the kick would become dead once it reached the goal line plus he can't call for a fair catch in there anyway. " If we called everything that had no baring on anything, it would become a long, flag filled game. We try to keep it fair, safe and good."

[bossman72]

Where is the PSK enforced?  End of the kick or spot of the foul or ABO?

To answer your question:

Use ABO with the return team as the "team in possession" when enforcing the foul.  Basic spot is the end of the kick.  If the kick ends in the end zone, basic spot is the 20.

[Curious]

Would we have a safety if R is standing in his end zone waving two arms regardless of where the scrimmage kick ends?

Simply put....hell no!

AVOID THE RIDICULOUS CALL!

[SCHSref]

How can you have fair catch privileges on a ball that becomes dead?

[HLinNC]

As I said many posts ago, Why?

[Rulesman]