Hideout on free kick?

[sj_31]

Nee rules support if any for this situation. After try, Team K kickers huddle with special teams coach around R-35. All 11 players move to their kickoff positions in between the K-40 and K-35 however one of the kickers moves up the field in the field of play but near the sideline. The restricted area is clear and there is no huddle or mass of substitutes near this player, however he clearly does not get within the 9-yard marks. K lines up in onside kick formation (again legal with at least 4 players on either side) to other side of field and they surprise kick it to the "lone" side (there are 3 other players on the side of the kicker inside the hashes) and the "hideout" kicking team member recovers the kick uncontested at the R-48 yard line.

Legal? In other words I'm asking if there is any ILF foul for free kick plays similar to 7.2.1 for scrimmage plays. This is assuming that the the team did not violate 9.6.4.d. Or did they?

[FLAHL]

Any hideout play is an attempt to deceive and a foul. I think 9-6-4d applies in this situation.

[Ralph Damren]

This is something that should be caught in you pregame meeting with the coach.

 REF : "Do you have any unusual or trick plays that you can make us aware of so that we may give them proper coverage ?"

 COACH : "Ayuh, we got this here kickoff where we (OP) "
 
 REF : " 'Spect that would fall under 'pretended substitution to deceive' and draw some hankies  having you re kick from your 25 !"

 COACH : " Thank you, kind sir, for causing me to mend my ways and your kindness for telling me now rather that after I ran such a distasteful play.  "

   ......and the band played on ....in our dreams

[bama_stripes]

I'm not sure why this would be illegal.  We don't allow a kickoff unless there are exactly 11 players on each team.  Since there's no time pressure, and since 10 K players must be between their 35 and 40, R should be able to identify all 11 K players.

[Jim D]

A real hide out play would be illegal, but there are no requirements on a free kick that a player be within the numbers, etc.  A player could come on the field late (which often happens on a kick off) and just go to his position as the widest player with no problem.  R has a lot of time to get set and adjust to the kicking team's formation (if they even bother to do so).  There is no 9 yard restriction on free kicks. 

The way you describe it, the player huddled with the rest of his team, then as they broke the huddle he moved to a legal position so I don't see a "hide out" situation here.  If he had stepped on to the field at the last second, and the tapped it over to him I can see that being a hide out.  This play sounds legal to me the way I'm envisioning it.

[BIG UMP]

I got burned 20 years ago with a hideout play and absolutely hate them.  This play doesn't even get my attention.

[Rulesman]

There is no 9 yard restriction on free kicks. 

Memo to Ralph: therein lies the problem.

[Ralph Damren]

Memo to Ralph: therein lies the problem.

While the nine yard rule, which was added in 2005, doesn't apply to free kicks; 9-6-4d and addresses both snaps and free kicks. IMHO, it would apply here.

[maybrefguy]

9-6-4d   To use a player, replaced player, substitute, coach, athletic trainer or other
attendant in a substitution or pretended substitution to deceive opponents
at or immediately before the snap or free kick.

Ralph - are you saying that the player walking with the coach was pretending to be subbed for so the rule applies?  I'm not sure about that.

[Ralph Damren]

9-6-4d   To use a player, replaced player, substitute, coach, athletic trainer or other
attendant in a substitution or pretended substitution to deceive opponents
at or immediately before the snap or free kick.

Ralph - are you saying that the player walking with the coach was pretending to be subbed for so the rule applies?  I'm not sure about that.

If it/he walks like a hideout play - acts like a hideout play - gains the positive results of a hideout play ----than it probably is a hideout play designed to deceive.

I don't feel there is a place for it in our game.

RULE OF THUMB :  Would Knute Rockne think this was a fair play

....my guess is....he wouldn't.

[Rulesman]

My feeble brain tells me it would be simpler to put it in black and white and make the 9 yard marks apply to free kicks. That takes reading "intent" out of the equation.

[Ump33]

My feeble brain tells me it would be simpler to put it in black and white and make the 9 yard marks apply to free kicks. That takes reading "intent" out of the equation.

+1 ... I also agree with Ralph that the OP is a "hideout play". So do as Rulesman suggests, make the 9 yard requirement apply to Free Kicks and take "intent out of the equation."

[Jim D]

K or A players can take up a legal position on the field, and they have no requirement to alert the opponent of where they are.  Carelessness in properly marking an opponent is a mistake by the defense.

I had a play last week on a punt - the wideout left the huddle and split wide.  I reminded him to stay inside the numbers (he was just outside of them).  He did move back in, and came back out after the RFP.  R never noticed him and the K coaches did notice and alterted the kicker and he threw a nice pass to him for a long gain (I don't think is was planned until R failed to cover him).  Legal play.

I don't see anything in the original play that showed K was trying to hide out this player other than he split wide and didn't join the others.  R had every opportunity to track him as well as the other 10 players as they set up but failed to do so.

By going to the huddle with the other players, he can't be considered a subsitution or pretended substitution to deceive opponents.  Therefore, I don't have a foul here.

[HLinNC]

Agree with Jim D. and BigUmp on this one.  I understand Ralph's POV.  It was probably some attempt at subterfuge but there is plenty of time available for R to identify who is out there for K.  If you are on the field of play in uniform, you are obviously a player.

[Rulesman]

... but there is plenty of time available for R to identify who is out there for K.  If you are on the field of play in uniform, you are obviously a player.

If that's the case then why is the hideout play on a normal scrimmage down illegal?

[Atlanta Blue]

It's not practical to have the 9 yard mark rule on free kicks.  On free kicks, everyone gets into position, and THEN the R blows it in when he sees that everyone is ready.  In order for a team to put their players wide, the RFP would have to come while everyone was "huddling", or not yet getting into position.

Not practical for the kicking team, and a change to mechanics that I doubt most R's want to make.

As to the original play, it's going to be a judgment call.  If all he did was huddle with the team near the sideline, then stay there, I've got nothing, legal play.  If he faced the field and had a coach next to him talking (a la Dabo Sweeney at Clemson), then I see an illegal intent to deceive.  Without seeing it, who knows, but I lean toward legal.

[Rulesman]

It's not practical to have the 9 yard mark rule on free kicks. 

So the NCAA is wrong? 

[AlUpstateNY]

So the NCAA is wrong? 

No necessarily wrong, but different. Mechanics for scrimmage downs and free kicks are somewhat different.

On a FK, wing officials (usually) are positioned on, or outside their respective sidelines, and deliberately and conspicuously signal the Referee that the formation is set, and ready to go.  Although conceivable, it seems highly unlikely and improbable, that a player would be able to "sneak" onto the field between the wing official's ready signal and the RFP, without clearly being guilty of violating 9-6-4d.

Perhaps NCAA players (and coaches) may be somewhat more devious, necessitating a specific rule.

[Atlanta Blue]

So the NCAA is wrong? 

Yes, I believe they are, and it's often not enforced.  Easy example.  RFP, team moves into position, ball falls off the tee.  Kicker goes to ball, replaces it, goes back to spot, and another RFP is blown.  Did all of those kicking team players move back inside the numbers before the RFP?  Of course not.

MANY teams line up before the RFP, just like they do in high school.  As long as no one is trying to take advantage of the rule with a hideout, being inside the nines after the RFP is ignored, in the NCAA and the NFL.