First touching?

[SideLine]

Can you have first touching of an illegal kick?  I want to say no, but rule reference is eluding me.

6-2-5 spells out first touching of a "scrimmage kick"

2-24-4 defines "scrimmage kick" as "ANY kick from in or behind the neutral zone during a scrimmage down"  (note it does not say LEGAL kick.  It says ANY kick)

[zoom]

No, and look at 2-24-9, which defines an illegal kick.  First touching of a kick refers to the status of the ball when it is touched and not the action which caused the ball to be downfield.  If there is an illegal kick taken from behind the neutral zone, then it will retain whatever status it had before it was kicked.  In the case of a ball rolling on the ground, it is a fumble, and a fumble cannot be first touched.  A fumble, even if it is illegally kicked, remains a fumble. 

[SideLine]

Here is a play for consideration:

3rd and 2 from the R5, the clock is stopped with 4 seconds remaining in a tied game. A gets into scrimmage kick formation to attempt a field goal. The holder muffs the snap and while the ball is loose on the ground K1 kicks the ball, the ball hits K2 at the R5, the ball bounces forward and K3 recovers the ball at the R3 and runs into the end zone. The clock expires during the down.

[zoom]

Here is a play for consideration:

3rd and 2 from the R5, the clock is stopped with 4 seconds remaining in a tied game. A gets into scrimmage kick formation to attempt a field goal. The holder muffs the snap and while the ball is loose on the ground K1 kicks the ball, the ball hits K2 at the R5, the ball bounces forward and K3 recovers the ball at the R3 and runs into the end zone. The clock expires during the down.

Perfect.  The muffed snap is treated as a backward pass.  K1 fouled by illegally kicking it, and the ball remains a backward pass.  K3's advance is legal and the touchdown means that R will accept the penalty for the illegal kick to cancel the score.  If the wing official or the back judge rules the ball dead when K3 recovers it, then we have an IW, but that will be ignored, since R will prefer to accept the penalty rather than allow K to have an untimed down at the dead ball spot.  Either way, the period will be extended for the replay of the down following enforcement of the penalty from the spot where it was kicked.

Incidentally, even if the kick were legal, K2 is in the neutral zone, so his touching is ignored. 

[zoom]

Incidentally, I don't think either team would even know the rules well enough to complain if you did blow it dead and just ended the game.

[SideLine]

Incidentally, I don't think either team would even know the rules well enough to complain if you did blow it dead and just ended the game.

I'm quite certain you are correct about that!

[AlUpstateNY]

Incidentally, I don't think either team would even know the rules well enough to complain if you did blow it dead and just ended the game.

More importantly, your analysis was clear and concise.

[FLAHL]

Incidentally, I don't think either team would even know the rules well enough to complain if you did blow it dead and just ended the game.

Be careful with that assumption if you're working with a certain special teams coach in Georgia.
 

[Atlanta Blue]

No, and look at 2-24-9, which defines an illegal kick.  First touching of a kick refers to the status of the ball when it is touched and not the action which caused the ball to be downfield.  If there is an illegal kick taken from behind the neutral zone, then it will retain whatever status it had before it was kicked.  In the case of a ball rolling on the ground, it is a fumble, and a fumble cannot be first touched.  A fumble, even if it is illegally kicked, remains a fumble.

Team K punts the ball, it is muffed by B beyond the LOS, rolls back behind the LOS, and K, not knowing the rules, kicks the loose ball off the ground.  Flag for an illegal kick, but what happens when the ball touches K downfield?  You have an illegal kick, but because the ball retains the status it had before the illegal kick, it's still a kick, and first touching rules would still apply.

FG attempt, kick is blocked behind the LOS by B, in a panic, K kicks the ball off the ground downfield.  The status of the ball was a kick, so it remains a kick, and first touching rules apply.

The change made to the status of an illegal kick a few years back made this possible.  Prior to the change, the rule stated (incorrectly), that the status of an illegal kick was a fumble.  In certain circumstances, that made no sense (imagine a defensive back doing a bicycle kick on a forward pass - does it suddenly become a fumble, to be recovered by anyone while lying on the ground?)  But since the rule was corrected to say that the ball retains the status it had prior to the illegal kick, when you illegally kick a kick, and it's still a kick. and first touching rules apply to kicks.

[zoom]

Team K punts the ball, it is muffed by B beyond the LOS, rolls back behind the LOS, and K, not knowing the rules, kicks the loose ball off the ground.  Flag for an illegal kick, but what happens when the ball touches K downfield?  You have an illegal kick, but because the ball retains the status it had before the illegal kick, it's still a kick, and first touching rules would still apply.

FG attempt, kick is blocked behind the LOS by B, in a panic, K kicks the ball off the ground downfield.  The status of the ball was a kick, so it remains a kick, and first touching rules apply.

The change made to the status of an illegal kick a few years back made this possible.  Prior to the change, the rule stated (incorrectly), that the status of an illegal kick was a fumble.  In certain circumstances, that made no sense (imagine a defensive back doing a bicycle kick on a forward pass - does it suddenly become a fumble, to be recovered by anyone while lying on the ground?)  But since the rule was corrected to say that the ball retains the status it had prior to the illegal kick, when you illegally kick a kick, and it's still a kick. and first touching rules apply to kicks.

Nailed it.  Exactly right, as usual!

[J12]

Team K punts the ball, it is muffed by B beyond the LOS, rolls back behind the LOS, and K, not knowing the rules, kicks the loose ball off the ground.  Flag for an illegal kick, but what happens when the ball touches K downfield?  You have an illegal kick, but because the ball retains the status it had before the illegal kick, it's still a kick, and first touching rules would still apply.

FG attempt, kick is blocked behind the LOS by B, in a panic, K kicks the ball off the ground downfield.  The status of the ball was a kick, so it remains a kick, and first touching rules apply.

The change made to the status of an illegal kick a few years back made this possible.  Prior to the change, the rule stated (incorrectly), that the status of an illegal kick was a fumble.  In certain circumstances, that made no sense (imagine a defensive back doing a bicycle kick on a forward pass - does it suddenly become a fumble, to be recovered by anyone while lying on the ground?)  But since the rule was corrected to say that the ball retains the status it had prior to the illegal kick, when you illegally kick a kick, and it's still a kick. and first touching rules apply to kicks.

In the first situation, the ball RETAINS it's status as a kick.  In essence, wouldn't it retain it's status as the first kick which was a legal?  The second kick -- the illegal kick -- doesn't give it any new status as a kick.  It's still the same kick that was previously muffed. There was apparently no First Touching before the muff by R.  So I'm going to say there is no first touching because it's STILL a muffed punt.  ??

[Atlanta Blue]

In the first situation, the ball RETAINS it's status as a kick.  In essence, wouldn't it retain it's status as the first kick which was a legal?  The second kick -- the illegal kick -- doesn't give it any new status as a kick.  It's still the same kick that was previously muffed. There was apparently no First Touching before the muff by R.  So I'm going to say there is no first touching because it's STILL a muffed punt.  ??

That's true, while it's still a kick, R has already touched it beyond the LOS, so there can't be First Touching.  Good catch.