Author Topic: Targeting  (Read 8748 times)

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Offline TXMike

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Targeting
« on: October 08, 2017, 12:12:11 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaLfbgpdQDo

Can't wait to see if this one makes one of the training videos

Offline Eastshire

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Re: Targeting
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2017, 06:39:22 AM »
As an Ohio State fan who doesn't actually referee football, I'm really curious what you all think of this hit. I thought the hit was delivered to the front of A's shoulder and the head contact comes from A's head coming forward when his chest stops rather than B making contact with the head. But everything I know about it I've learned from TV and here. So what do you guys think?

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Targeting
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2017, 08:56:33 AM »
Contact is with head and neck area. IMO, targeting.
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Online ElvisLives

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Re: Targeting
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2017, 09:59:41 AM »
Firstly, I hope by now everyone knows to completely ignore anything TV broadcasters say.  They know next to nothing about football rules and officiating.  Please discount anything and everything they have say about those subjects.

The answers to these questions don’t rest in the words of the rules, but within the intent of the rules.  For far, far too long, part of the culture of football was to deliver as much punishment and pain as possible, rather than play the game as a ‘game’ of speed, strength, and skill.
With the amount of real damage that culture had created, those governing the game recognized that the culture must change, and, with regard to defending the advance of the ball, players must return to ‘tackling’ ball carriers with use of ‘wrap up’ type techniques, and not just blasting the BC to cause as much punishment as possible.
The rules were modified to make that happen.  Slowly, but surely, it is working. Just yesterday, there were numerous examples of ‘hits’ and tackles that demonstrated the ability of players to stop the advancement of the BC while consciously avoiding any and all contact above the shoulder of the BC, and with the defender able to keep his head ‘up’ during the hit or tackle.
Unfortunately, there are still some folks that haven’t accepted the change, yet.  The play in question is a great example.  Rather than make any attempt to wrap up the BC, the defender, instead, elected to attempt to inflict as much punishment as possible on the BC by blasting him.  While the rules do not regulate the force with which a player may legally block an opponent, the responsibility is squarely on the player to avoid making contact above the shoulder of an opponent.  This defender used his shoulder to block the BC high on the BC’s body.  All well and good, but the player also made significant contact to the BC above the shoulders.  That is precisely the type of play that those governing the game are trying to eliminate.  These players need to learn that they must avoid this type of contact, and the best way to do that is to wrap up the BC instead just blasting them.  A hard block is certainly still legal, but the onus is still on the player to avoid using his helmet illegally, or making contact above the shoulders.
Some will try to argue that this player neither ‘launched’ nor made contact with the crown of his helmet.  By rule, those things are ‘indicators,’ but they are not exclusive criteria for targeting.  Taking a run at an opponent to block him clearly shows intent, and then contacting illegally with the helmet, or above the shoulders is clearly targeting.

This was a good call.  Very courageous.

Robert


Offline clearwall

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Re: Targeting
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2017, 11:40:32 AM »
Slight launch in the hit is an indicator. Contact to the head can be confirmed as you see it rock back after the hit. Defenseless receiver as per the rules. Everything in this says targeting.

AFOpie

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Re: Targeting
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2017, 07:15:23 PM »
Do you think if this was not flagged 1) Replay stops and looks at it 2) Replay creates a TGT?

Thoughts.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Targeting
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2017, 08:18:40 PM »
Absolutely.

Robert

Offline Eastshire

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Re: Targeting
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2017, 09:24:21 AM »
Firstly, I hope by now everyone knows to completely ignore anything TV broadcasters say.  They know next to nothing about football rules and officiating.  Please discount anything and everything they have say about those subjects.

The answers to these questions don’t rest in the words of the rules, but within the intent of the rules.  For far, far too long, part of the culture of football was to deliver as much punishment and pain as possible, rather than play the game as a ‘game’ of speed, strength, and skill.
With the amount of real damage that culture had created, those governing the game recognized that the culture must change, and, with regard to defending the advance of the ball, players must return to ‘tackling’ ball carriers with use of ‘wrap up’ type techniques, and not just blasting the BC to cause as much punishment as possible.
The rules were modified to make that happen.  Slowly, but surely, it is working. Just yesterday, there were numerous examples of ‘hits’ and tackles that demonstrated the ability of players to stop the advancement of the BC while consciously avoiding any and all contact above the shoulder of the BC, and with the defender able to keep his head ‘up’ during the hit or tackle.
Unfortunately, there are still some folks that haven’t accepted the change, yet.  The play in question is a great example.  Rather than make any attempt to wrap up the BC, the defender, instead, elected to attempt to inflict as much punishment as possible on the BC by blasting him.  While the rules do not regulate the force with which a player may legally block an opponent, the responsibility is squarely on the player to avoid making contact above the shoulder of an opponent.  This defender used his shoulder to block the BC high on the BC’s body.  All well and good, but the player also made significant contact to the BC above the shoulders.  That is precisely the type of play that those governing the game are trying to eliminate.  These players need to learn that they must avoid this type of contact, and the best way to do that is to wrap up the BC instead just blasting them.  A hard block is certainly still legal, but the onus is still on the player to avoid using his helmet illegally, or making contact above the shoulders.
Some will try to argue that this player neither ‘launched’ nor made contact with the crown of his helmet.  By rule, those things are ‘indicators,’ but they are not exclusive criteria for targeting.  Taking a run at an opponent to block him clearly shows intent, and then contacting illegally with the helmet, or above the shoulders is clearly targeting.

This was a good call.  Very courageous.

Robert

Thanks for the good breakdown. Do you think we will reach the point where not attempting a wrap up is a foul like it is in rugby? Personally, that's the way I'd go. Just get rid of the "blow up" tackle all together. It's bad defense and it gets people hurt.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Targeting
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2017, 09:58:03 AM »
Do you think we will reach the point where not attempting a wrap up is a foul like it is in rugby?


Not in what's left of my lifetime.  :)

But, with conviction to staying the course on the part of those governing the game, the culture may change, in time.  It may take a greater penalty to make it happen sooner.  Unfortunately, the "revenue'" element of the culture will cause the most resistance.  The risk of losing a high profile payer for multiple games could fix the problem, but the bean counters will pitch a holy fit, and fight such action tooth and nail.  Sadly, NCAA football has become like the NFL - it is all about the money.

Robert

Offline DJW201

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Re: Targeting
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2017, 01:33:42 PM »
I do not think this is targeting.  You see what looks like some contact with the head at the very end of the tape, but when you put all of the views together, the receiver's head goes forward with the hit.  It is not possible for his head to go forward if the contact is above the shoulders. If the hit was high, then his head would go back.  He is defenseless, obviously, but the forcible contact is to the chest.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Targeting
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2017, 03:38:03 PM »
Look again.  There is forcible contact to the body AND the head.  The head goes "forward" because the shoulder of the defender strikes the receiver at the top of the receiver's torso, and into the neck area.  The momentum of the receivers head causes his head to pitch downward slightly, and the receiver's head is then contacted forcibly by the side of the defender's helmet.  The receiver's head then pitches backward slightly as his body rotates forward underneath of his head, making it look like the head wasn't as severely impacted as it was.

All of that aside, why didn't the defender simply lower his whole body a little, extend his arms around the receiver and tackle him, with the same force? 

Answer:  Because he is still in the culture of folks that are looking for the highlight reel "big hit." 

Had he done so, he would have achieved the same results, but would not have violated the targeting rules.  His head would have been to the side of the receiver (no contact with the crown), and the body-to-body contact would have been completely below the head-neck area.

The culture must change, or the courts will get involved, and nobody should want that.

It was a good, correct, and courageous targeting ruling.

Robert


Offline hefnerjm

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Re: Targeting
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2017, 12:51:30 PM »
I understand the philosophy on this.  And I understand the positions on both sides.

I do not think this is a "clear cut" or "obvious" targeting call based on the language of the rules and the requirements laid out in both 9.1.3 and 9.1.4.  this is clearly not a 9.1.3 foul, and at best, I could say that this is "in doubt" of being a 9.1.4 foul.

That said, the axiom for Targeting is "when in doubt, it is a foul".

That is the only way I can justify this...this play has generated alot of debate both here and on other forums.  Many are saying that this "clearly is" or "clearly is not" targeting, and I cant get on either side.  This is the very grey middle where we have to rely on the axiom to break the tie. 

Those that govern the game want these hits eliminated and are willing to eject the occasional innocent player (or at least innocent according to the letter of the rule) in order to reinforce the intent of removing high hits.  Agree or disagree, the guidance is clear and we need to improve our consistency across the board. 
Coach: "I've been doing this 30 years!  I know the rules!"
Ref: "Are you married coach?"
Coach (suddenly offguard): "umm...yeah, why?"
Ref: "I've been married 30 years and my wife says there is still room for improvement"
Coach: "<silence>"

Offline scrounge

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Re: Targeting
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2017, 02:31:29 PM »
The Big Ten office has come out and said that the call was incorrect and that replay was wrong to confirm. Yes, 2nd hand from the coach's teleconference, not an official release, but hard to imagine Meyer would lie about something so obviously, easily verifiable.

http://www.dispatch.com/sports/20171010/ohio-state-football-ward-hit-wasnt-targeting-big-ten-tells-buckeyes