Momentum

[jmckb99]

Saw this on another site, but wanted to post here for some opinions.   

Third and seven (doesn't matter from where).  A1 throws a legal forward pass which is intercepted by B1 on B's 3 yd line and his momentum carries him into the end zone.  While in the end zone, he fumbles and the ball rolls out of the end zone and into the field of play where it is recovered by B2 on B's 4 yd line.  During the run by B1 in the end zone, B3 holds A2 at B's 14.

[bossman72]

Safety.  Momentum is off since the ball left the end zone.  Enforcement is from the end of the run, which is where the ball was fumbled. End of the run is in the end zone, so it's a safety.

[jmckb99]

So I understand that the spot for momentum is nullified, but why is the force, by A, also nullified? 

[js in sc]

So I understand that the spot for momentum is nullified, but why is the force, by A, also nullified?

Force is only a factor involved in balls going from the field of play into the end zone.  Force is not a factor here.  The foul occurred when B had the ball in the end zone which became the end of the associated run when momentum was cancelled.  Safety.

[jmckb99]

the ball WAS forced into the end zone when B's momentum carried him into the end zone and this play would matter who forced it in. If he doesn't fumble, the ball comes back out to the 3. But since he does fumble he loses the momentum exception and the spot at the 3. My question is, why would you disqualify the force just because he fumbled?

Rule 10.4.6 says this...."The basic spot is the 20-yard line for fouls by either team when the opponent of the team in possession at the time of the foul is responsible for forcing the ball across the goal line of the team in possession, and the related run ends in the end zone and is followed by a loose ball, regardless of where the loose ball becomes dead."

[js in sc]

the ball WAS forced into the end zone when B's momentum carried him into the end zone and this play would matter who forced it in. If he doesn't fumble, the ball comes back out to the 3. But since he does fumble he loses the momentum exception and the spot at the 3. My question is, why would you disqualify the force just because he fumbled?

Rule 10.4.6 says this...."The basic spot is the 20-yard line for fouls by either team when the opponent of the team in possession at the time of the foul is responsible for forcing the ball across the goal line of the team in possession, and the related run ends in the end zone and is followed by a loose ball, regardless of where the loose ball becomes dead."

That is true, IF B DOES NOT FOUL.  With no foul, you are correct. The rule quoted is if there are no other associated factors. Once B fouled, while the ball was in their possession in the end zone, it becomes a safety using all-but-one.

[jmckb99]

what is true? I only asked why you would disqualify force just because he fumbled?

And the rule quoted specifically deals with fouls by either team depending on who forced it into the end zone. I don't see a caveat for "other associated factors". And what are you saying those factors are?

[CalhounLJ]

what is true? I only asked why you would disqualify force just because he fumbled?

And the rule quoted specifically deals with fouls by either team depending on who forced it into the end zone. I don't see a caveat for "other associated factors". And what are you saying those factors are?

Actually it was B who forced the ball into the endzone, not A. Once B possessed the ball in the field of play, his force becomes a factor. He carried the ball into the endzone. The momentum exception simply bails him out because of his inability to physically prevent himself and the ball from going into the endzone. The momentum exception disappears once the ball comes out of the endzone. The thought is that he had his chance to stay in and take the exception, but by allowing the ball to come out of the endzone, whether intentionally or not, he has declined to take advantage of the exception. And so, with the penalty, normal enforcement rules apply. You have a foul with end-of-run enforcement, and B's end of run happened in his own endzone, with him forcing the ball in. Safety.

[dch]

+1 for Calhoun's explanation above.

[PABJNR]

Also, force is not a factor on kicks going into R's EZ since these kicks are always a touchback regardless of who supplied the force.  So had this play been a kicking play with R catching the ball at the three and his momentum taking him into the EZ,  it would be the same result (a safety) as it couldn't have been a kick that put the ball into the EZ or it would be a touchback.  So for the play to remain live a new force has to have put the ball into the EZ which is R catching at the 3 and carrying it into the EZ.  As Calhoun explained no more momentum exception when the ball leaves the EZ.  I only bring this up to try and help understand that the force was not the pass in the OP was not the pass but B's carry, so its not the force that is getting "disqualified", it is the momentum exception, the force is the reason it is a safety as B put the ball into the EZ. 

Also interesting is if B had intercepted in the EZ instead of the 3, then it would be better for A to decline the hold as if the penalty would be accepted the basic spot would be the 20 and the penalty would be enforced all but one from the 14 to the 7.  Declining the penalty would give B the ball at the 4.  See 10-4-6.

[Brian26]

So if B didnt fumble the ball but before being downed in endzone the penalty still occurred would that still result in a safety cause B was responsible for the ball forced into their endzone?

[js in sc]

So if B didnt fumble the ball but before being downed in endzone the penalty still occurred would that still result in a safety cause B was responsible for the ball forced into their endzone?

In that case, momentum is still in effect and the penalty would be from the 3, 1/2 the distance to the goal.  B ball 1/10 from the 1.5.

[CalhounLJ]

Unless of course the foul was in the endzone. Then we have a foul behind the basic spot by the team in possession. Which would result in a safety.

[Curious]

This is a tricky play for sure.  Here are some points (from 2020 Reddings Guide) to ponder:
1.   The momentum rule is an exception to force
2.   When the run ends in the end zone after a change of possession, the basic spot is based on the force that put the ball in the EZ
3.   The basic spot is the 20 yd line for fouls by the opponent of the team in possession at the time of the foul when the opponent is responsible for forcing the ball across the GL of the team in possession, and the run ends in the EZ, and of the team in possessions followed by a loose ball – regardless of where the ball becomes dead
4.   The basic spot is the GL for fouls during running plays by the opponent of the team in possession the time of the foul when the team in possession is responsible for forcing the ball across its own GL and the related run ends in the EZ
5.   When the momentum exception applies, the end of the run is the spot where the kick or pass was caught. Penalties are enforced under the all but one principle
What this means is that when there is foul on a running play in which the final result is neither a touchback nor a safety (which is the case here), the penalty is enforced the same as if the play had ended when the run related to the foul ended.
See Example Play 11-61

[AlUpstateNY]

This is a tricky play for sure.  Here are some points (from 2020 Reddings Guide) to ponder:
1.   The momentum rule is an exception to force
5.   When the momentum exception applies, the end of the run is the spot where the kick or pass was caught. Penalties are enforced under the all but one principle
What this means is that when there is foul on a running play in which the final result is neither a touchback nor a safety (which is the case here), the penalty is enforced the same as if the play had ended when the run related to the foul ended.
See Example Play 11-61

A word of caution; NFHS:8-5-2a(Exception) relating to momentum, states, "...AND his original momentum carries him into the EZ where the ball remains in the EZ & is declared dead in the EZ in his team's possession, or it goes OOB in the EZ, the ball belongs to the team in possession at the spot where the pass or fumble was intercepted or recovered or the kick was caught or recovered."