5th down and Penalties

[SCHSref]

5th down @ 50 yd line. A8 catches pass and runs for TD. A8 spikes ball in endzone and B9 flagrantly targets A8. Both HC’s get an USC. A6 is flagged for holding during the play. After conferring, the officials realize that it was 5th down. Ruling: No score for A. USC’s offset. The spiking of the ball and the targeting offset. B9 is ejected. 1st and 10 for B at the 50 yd line.

True or False

[Fatso]

5th down @ 50 yd line. A8 catches pass and runs for TD. A8 spikes ball in endzone and B9 flagrantly targets A8. Both HC’s get an USC. A6 is flagged for holding during the play. After conferring, the officials realize that it was 5th down. Ruling: No score for A. USC’s offset. The spiking of the ball and the targeting offset. B9 is ejected. 1st and 10 for B at the 50 yd line.

True or False

My guess is this is true.....   holding foul is ignored b/c the play technically didn't happen.  UNS and dead ball flagrant fouls still need to be enforced as does the UNS on coaches.  Yardages offset and B's ball at 50.

[ilyazhito]

5th down @ 50 yd line. A8 catches pass and runs for TD. A8 spikes ball in endzone and B9 flagrantly targets A8. Both HC’s get an USC. A6 is flagged for holding during the play. After conferring, the officials realize that it was 5th down. Ruling: No score for A. USC’s offset. The spiking of the ball and the targeting offset. B9 is ejected. 1st and 10 for B at the 50 yd line.

True or False

How the heck does that happen? I don't know any rule set where 5th down is a thing.

[Fatso]

How the heck does that happen? I don't know any rule set where 5th down is a thing.

It's not a thing...  crew messed up and gave a 5th down and is correcting the situation after the fact.

[NVFOA_Ump]

It's not a thing...  crew messed up and gave a 5th down and is correcting the situation after the fact.

Can't "correct" this so cannot let this happen. We ALWAYS confirm down with ALL crew members on every play without exception.  If there is any question we stop the clock and get together to sort out what's wrong.  No way this can happen.  I'd be sitting for a few Friday nights if this happened in my game.

[Ralph Damren]

In 2015we added 5-1-1b ,referencing incorrect downs. Prior to that, R would apply 1-1-6 (God rule) . The following season the NFHS was overloaded with " WHAT IF  " phone calls. At the following meeting, a proposal was requested for a rule governing incorrect chain placement.  It recieved NO support  . 

I'm with NVFOA Ump, don't let it happen 

PS : The incorrect chain placement can happen. This occurred in one of our games....

SCENE : Late in a game, A trailing by 2 , in hurry-up offense....

ACT I : A ,1/10 @ B's 20;
ACT II : A rushes up and snaps ball prior to RFP  ;
ACT III : ball placed  @ B's 25, 1/15  ;
ACT IV:  ball @ B's 12, 4/2, missed FG

AFTER FURTHER REVIEW BY REPLAY OFFICIAL(s)..Monday night meeting..

The DOG foul occurred prior to RFP, CHAINS SHOULD HAVE BEEN RESET TO B,s 25, 1/10. A should have 1/10 @ B's 12.

 

[bossman72]

Isn't the NFHS rule to erase everything and go back and replay the down where the incorrect down number occurred?

[MAFBRef]

From Redding’s Guide this year.

If Team A is given a fifth down and it's discovered before the ball becomes live for the down after the fifth-down play, the extra down is canceled and play reverts to what should have been the fourth down play. That means Team B will always be awarded the ball at that spot. If the officials realize an extra down has been given during a series, the correct down is placed on the down marker and play continues (5.1.1A).

[NVFOA_Ump]

Isn't the NFHS rule to erase everything and go back and replay the down where the incorrect down number occurred?

Basically yes.  Carefully read the NFHS case plays here (5.1.1 Situations A, B, and C) and note that they are worded poorly, wow what a surprise.  It not so clearly itemizes what penalties should be enforced if they occur DURING the down.  Good luck with that wording. There are no enforceable penalties that occurred DURING the down on the case play here.  The "enforceable" penalties that occurred here were after the ball became dead and did not occur DURING the down.  As I noted earlier, you simply cannot let this happen.

[Fatso]

Isn't the NFHS rule to erase everything and go back and replay the down where the incorrect down number occurred?

Bossman are you asking if it reverts back to 4th down and A gets to run a new 4th down play?  If so, answer is no.

It reverts back to the end of the 4th down play and B takes over from there.  Sucks for A because had they known it was actually 4th down, they may have punted or called a different play.  A gets screwed.

[Ralph Damren]

Simpplistically speaking, if we don't screw up the downs nobody gets screwed 
....auh, should we reset the game clock ??

[NVFOA_Ump]

....auh, should we reset the game clock ??

No question that we must reset the game clock since the A series actually ended on the "first" 4th down.  Exactly where to reset it to will be a judgment best guess I expect, but has to be close to a minute if A used close to the 40 second play clock.

[Ralph Damren]

If you enjoy the  read CASE 5.1.1. Think of the journey the ref will have to explain to R's coach why...

  > 
                                                               

[NVFOA_Ump]

If you enjoy the  read CASE 5.1.1. Think of the journey the ref will have to explain to R's coach why...

  > 
                                                               

    -  As noted above this simply cannot happen because you cannot "fix it".

[sczeebra]

5th down @ 50 yd line. A8 catches pass and runs for TD. A8 spikes ball in endzone and B9 flagrantly targets A8. Both HC’s get an USC. A6 is flagged for holding during the play. After conferring, the officials realize that it was 5th down. Ruling: No score for A. USC’s offset. The spiking of the ball and the targeting offset. B9 is ejected. 1st and 10 for B at the 50 yd line.

True or False

I figure "Charlie" is going to set the whole crew down for a week. If it happens at this time of year y'all will have all winter to think about it!

[bossman72]

Bossman are you asking if it reverts back to 4th down and A gets to run a new 4th down play?  If so, answer is no.

It reverts back to the end of the 4th down play and B takes over from there.  Sucks for A because had they known it was actually 4th down, they may have punted or called a different play.  A gets screwed.

I guess I was thinking about when you short a team a down.  So if you have 4th down and it's really 3rd down and they punt.  I think you have to go back to whichever down you skipped over and replay it.

[Fatso]

I guess I was thinking about when you short a team a down.  So if you have 4th down and it's really 3rd down and they punt.  I think you have to go back to whichever down you skipped over and replay it.

Makes sense..