Too Late?

[bama_stripes]

From a jamboree game last night:

Team A gains a first down at the B-6.  Following the play, A is penalized for a dead ball USC foul.  The ball is spotted at the B-21, but the chains are not set.  As a result, Team A erroneously plays 1st-and-goal, and gains 7 yards to the B-14.

Following the 1st down play, someone on the crew realizes that the previous play should have been 1/10.  Is it too late to correct this error?  If not, should the next down be 2/3, or should we replay 1st down with the chains set?

[SCline]

Rule book doesn’t have a way to fix this error, so technically it’s “too late”. In my opinion you can either
A) no change 2/Goal from the 14.
Or
B) use 1-1-6 and set up the line to gain at the 11, 2/3 from the 14

I would not replay first down.

[Derek Teigen]

In this case, there are no chains to  set. There's just the down box. The chains are sit down it's first and goal from the b21

[ncwingman]

I would allow for the "correction" to make it 2nd and 3.

My rationale:

1) In a hurry up situation, as long as the down box is in position, the ball can (and sometimes does) become live before the chains are in proper position. The chains don't make it 1st and 10, they just indicate the LTG.

2) Especially at the high school level, getting the chain crew to pay attention to the game is often a feat worthy to be told over post game beers. Mistakes they make are common and numerous. I'm not saying throw them under the bus here, but the chains are often guidelines more than anything.

3) What would you do in this scenario: A gets a first down at the B39. The lead stick assumes it was at the big line and stands at the B30, making it look like 1st and 9 (and completely ignoring the slack in the chain). A gains 4 yards on both 1st and 2nd down. During the dead ball before 3rd and what looks like 1, but is really 2, the lead stick realizes the slack and moves to the correct position. Do you make him move back to where he was, or realize he should have been at the 29 the whole time and it's 3rd and 2 like it should have been?

[Rob S]

I had a somewhat similar mess a few years back about when is it too late to fix chains.

1/10 from the A-20 (after a touchback). A runs for 7 yards, but there's a holding flag at the LOS. While U and R are discussing, the box moves to the end of the run (on his own), but leaves the 1 on it. U goes to the box, marches off the 10 yards with the H (who for some reason didn't question it) and we set up 1/13 at the 17. Next play, A throws a short incomplete pass and it clicks to the U that we should have snapped from the 10 (1/20).

Options were:

• Since we ran a play, leave it 2/13 (to me, too unfair to the defense)
• Pretend the play didn't happen and reset 1/20 (also unfair to the defense who got an INC)
• Count the play, but start the next one properly at 2/20 (seems most fair as we're in the "right" spot, but the offense may have run a different play had they known they had 1/20 vs 1/13

I made the decision the last option was the most fair. Had a good chat with a lot of other Rs over the next week and the state rules interpreter. Thoughts were about 50/50 option 1 (be stuck with it) vs 3 (put ball in right spot)... no one though replaying a play was a good idea. All agreed there was no rules coverage for this, so invoking the "referee can make any decision he feels is fair" rule was acceptable.

Despite a very unhappy A coach after that decision (and again at halftime and postgame), they had an 80 yard TD on the next play, so it was all a moot point, so at least we had no impact on the game.

[Steely Dan]

In this case, there are no chains to  set. There's just the down box. The chains are sit down it's first and goal from the b21

If the UNS foul was before the ready to play for 1st and goal from the 6, then it would be 1st and 10 from the 21.  If the UNS was after the ready was blown in for 1st and goal from the 6, then it would be 1st and goal from 21.

[Derek Teigen]

If the UNS foul was before the ready to play for 1st and goal from the 6, then it would be 1st and 10 from the 21.  If the UNS was after the ready was blown in for 1st and goal from the 6, then it would be 1st and goal from 21.

The case play states the first down was made at the B6.  Then after the play (so we are assuming a dead ball foul) there was a UNS and they marched off the 15 yard penalty to the B21.  There should be no chains because it would be 1st and goal from the B21.  ONly the down box is needed the chains are set aside. 

I don't understand why somebody on the crew thought it would be 1st and 10 from the B21. 

Finally. The timing of the UNS and the ready for play are not associated with each other.   Once the play has been blown dead, any penalty thereafter is a dead ball foul....before or after the ready for play.

[bossman72]

The case play states the first down was made at the B6.  Then after the play (so we are assuming a dead ball foul) there was a UNS and they marched off the 15 yard penalty to the B21.  There should be no chains because it would be 1st and goal from the B21.  ONly the down box is needed the chains are set aside. 

I don't understand why somebody on the crew thought it would be 1st and 10 from the B21. 

Finally. The timing of the UNS and the ready for play are not associated with each other.   Once the play has been blown dead, any penalty thereafter is a dead ball foul....before or after the ready for play.

Huh?  You need to check the rule in regards to when the LTG is established.
NFHS used to do it this way in the 90s, but not anymore.

[bossman72]

From a jamboree game last night:

Team A gains a first down at the B-6.  Following the play, A is penalized for a dead ball USC foul.  The ball is spotted at the B-21, but the chains are not set.  As a result, Team A erroneously plays 1st-and-goal, and gains 7 yards to the B-14.

Following the 1st down play, someone on the crew realizes that the previous play should have been 1/10.  Is it too late to correct this error?  If not, should the next down be 2/3, or should we replay 1st down with the chains set?

By the book, you need to put it back on the 21 and replay 1st and 10.  The case book has a play where it specs this out pretty good.  NFHS rules require you to replay the down where the down/sticks got messed up and undo everything that happened after it.

The common sense ruling for this particular situation would be to make it 2nd and 3.

[Derek Teigen]

Huh?  You need to check the rule in regards to when the LTG is established.
NFHS used to do it this way in the 90s, but not anymore.

How do we go from first and goal at the six to a first and 10 at the 21 The LTG had been made There was a dead ball foul. You moved the team back 15 yards now it's first goal from the 21. You're giving team an advantage by making it 1st and 10  from the 21 rather than first goal.

[Snapper]

The case play states the first down was made at the B6.  Then after the play (so we are assuming a dead ball foul) there was a UNS and they marched off the 15 yard penalty to the B21.  There should be no chains because it would be 1st and goal from the B21.  ONly the down box is needed the chains are set aside. 

I don't understand why somebody on the crew thought it would be 1st and 10 from the B21. 

Finally. The timing of the UNS and the ready for play are not associated with each other.   Once the play has been blown dead, any penalty thereafter is a dead ball foul....before or after the ready for play.

Derek, check out Rule 5-3-1:  The line to gain is 10 yards in advance of the ball's foremost point when a new series of downs is awarded. When a new series of downs is awarded, the penalties for all fouls (including nonplayer and unsportsmanlike) committed prior to the ball being ready-for-play shall be administered before the line to gain is established. The line to gain then remains fixed until the series ends and a new line to gain is established.

Here's one way to think about it:  Awarding a new series and establishing the line to gain are two different things.  Yes, much of the time, they happen really close to each other and we don't have to think too hard about it.  But after a new series is awarded to either team, then the line to gain is not fixed until the ready-for-play.

So here's a couple of examples.  A runs for a 1st down to the B-6.  A then taunts someone.  We award A a new series at the B-6 because they made the previous line to gain.  We know have a dead ball UNS to deal with.  We move back 15 yds to the B-21 and set the stakes.  A 1/10 B-21, UNS counter on the player who taunted.

Now instead, let's say that A runs for a 1st down to the B-6.  We award A a new series at the B-6 because they made the previous line to gain.  We put the ball down at the B-6 and the ready-for-play occurs.  It's now A 1/G at the B-6.  A comes up to the line and A56 false starts.  Since this is after the ready-for-play, the line to gain is not changed.  We move the ball back 5 yds and now it's A 1/G at the B-11.

[Snapper]

And here's another example for you.  A's pass gets intercepted and B returns it to the 50.  Afterwards, B11 taunts the passer.  We award B a new series at the 50 because B legally intercepted.  It's their ball now.  But we don't set the chains yet.  We have to deal with the UNS.  So we move B back to the B-35 and then we set the chains.  It's B 1/10 B-35, UNS counter on B11.

[Derek Teigen]

Thank you so much for the explanation I still can't believe I could be so far off.

[Derek Teigen]

And here's another example for you.  A's pass gets intercepted and B returns it to the 50.  Afterwards, B11 taunts the passer.  We award B a new series at the 50 because B legally intercepted.  It's their ball now.  But we don't set the chains yet.  We have to deal with the UNS.  So we move B back to the B-35 and then we set the chains.  It's B 1/10 B-35, UNS counter on B11.

Yes, this makes sense. This is a good example. I think I understand. Thank you.!!

[Steely Dan]

Yes, this makes sense. This is a good example. I think I understand. Thank you.!!

It all hinges on the ready for play for the new series.  If foul happens before the umpire spots the ball for the new series (or the referee blows the ready whistle after a stoppage) then mark off the penalty then set the 1st and 10 chains.  If it happens after the ready, the chains are already set and stay where they are, or no chains if goal to go.

[bama_stripes]

Case Book play 5.1.1 Sit E seems to be on point, and it says that following an ensuing snap, it’s too late to reset the chains. However, this makes little sense to me, given that we can correct the down number within a given series.

For example:  Following a touchback, Team A puts the ball in play from the A-20.  The chains are erroneously set at the A-21.  On third down, Team A runs the ball to the A-20.5, where it appears to be 4th down.  Team A’s coach now calls a timeout to discuss with the Referee why they are not awarded a first down.

RULING:??