Illegally Kicking a Loose Ball

[JKS]

I have a rules question for you gurus.  1st and goal at the B5.  A35 fumbles the ball at the B1 and the ball goes into the EZ.  While players are attempting to secure the ball B65 intentionally kicks the ball OOB behind the GL.  Ruling.  I know it is a safety, but what next?

[Welpe]

I am far from being a guru but I'll give your question a shot anyways.

The first thing you have is a loose ball in B's endzone with A's fumble being the impetus that put it there.  B65 illegally kicking the ball does not add a new impetus to the ball because it is in the endzone.  8-7-2-b-1 and AR 8-7-2-V.

Therefore the result of the play is a touchback.  We also have a flag down for illegall kicking the ball, which will be enforced under 3 and 1 from the end of A35's run, the B-1.  1st and Goal for A at the B - 1/2 yard line.

[JKS]

So illegally batting a loose ball changes the impetus but illegally kicking a loose ball does not?  Hmm.  You may be right.  Check this out in 9-4.

Illegally Kicking Ball
ARTICLE 4. A player shall not kick a loose ball, a forward pass or a ball
being held for a place kick by an opponent. These illegal acts do not change
the status of the loose ball or forward pass; but if the player holding the ball
for a place kick loses possession during a scrimmage down, it is a fumble
and a loose ball; if during a free kick, the ball remains dead (A.R. 8-7-2-
VII).

Seems to benefit B.  Would you then award B the ball at the 20 and penalize half the distance thus 1-10 at the B10?

[Welpe]

Both batting and illegally kicking a ball will change their impetus but only if done in the field of play.  A new impetus cannot be imparted on the ball while it is in the end zone.

No, the ball would not be awarded to B if the penalty was accepted.  The touchback is simply the result of the play absent the penalty.

A would keep the ball and the penalty would be enforced from the end of the related run.

[Hawkeye]

That is correct.

The illegal kicking is simply a team B foul during live ball, it is enforced using the 3-and-1 principal with the end of the related run as the basic spot.  Since it is a foul by the opponent of the team in possession, it is enforced from the basic spot.  Additionally, the ball was already in the endzone, so you cannot change the reason the ball was in the endzone (impetus), unless it leaves and comes back in.

If team B kicked the loose ball from the B-1 through the endzone, then the result of the play would be a safety, because the impetus from the fumble would be replaced by the new impetus from the kick in the field of play.

Note: Team A would still have the option to accept the penalty enforced at the B-1 because the foul occurred while team A was in possession.

10-2-2-c, 10-2-2-d-1, 5-2-4, 8-5-1-a, 8-7-1, 8-7-2-b-1-Ex, 8-7-2-b-1, 9-4-4

[nescac]

good dialogue and nice insight Hawkeye.  Impetus gets tricky, but valid points about it not changing on a kick or bat for a ball that is already in the EZ.