Author Topic: Roughing the passer on a completed pass  (Read 28013 times)

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hoochycoochy

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed pass
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2011, 01:30:13 PM »
AB and Bob, thanks for the reference.  I haven't gotten my books yet for next year. 

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed pass
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2011, 02:28:19 PM »
If you are an NFHS member, they are available online.  No waiting for those pesky summer meetings!

Offline Bob M.

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed pass
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2011, 02:44:24 PM »
Right case, wrong highlight!

REPLY: Certainly the correct play ;), and isn't it refreshing to see the case play cover so many of the possible outcomes.
Bob M.

Harry

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed pass
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2011, 08:56:10 AM »
The NFHS made an unforced error with this rule change.  I’m also surprised at how many knowledgeable officials misinterpret this one.  The "end of the last run" doesn’t apply anymore, but the principle is important enough to discuss.

There is no difference between last year and this year when there is a recovery by a prone A player without a change of possession during the down.

Quote
A has ball 1-10-A15. A12 throws a completed pass to A88 at the A25 and B85 hits A12 late and draws a flag. A88 fumbles the ball at the A30 and A recovers at the A20.

The enforcement for this both in 2010 and 2011 is 15yds from the A20.  The recovery spot by A20 is a run.
The recovery spot by a prone player is considered an “instantaneous run” according to the NFHS Reddings Guide (2010, p.48).  I don’t think there’s much dispute over that.  There is rule support for this too.

2-41-9 . . . The spot where a run ends is:
a.   Where the ball becomes dead in the runner’s possession.
With this understood, the enforcement in the play above is clear.  It’s the same before and after the rule.

Here is what the 2010 Reddings Guide says:
Quote
Example 5-34: On third down from Team A’s 39 yard line, A12 is roughed after throwing a complete pass A28, who runs for three yards to his own 42 yard line and fumbles.  The ball (a) is recovered by prone A63, or (b) rolls out of bounds, at Team A’s 45 yard line.  RULING: In (a), the penalty is enforced from Team A’s 45 yard line.  First and 10 at Team B’s 40 yard line.  In (b), the penalty is enforced from Team A’s 42 yard line.  First and 10 at Team B’s 43 yard line.

It goes on to say
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“Notice the end of the last run in (a) is where the ball is finally advanced, Team A’s 45 yard line, not where A28 fumbled it, Team A’s 42 yard line.  Among the definitions for the spot where the run ends (2-41-9) is the point where the ball is declared dead in player possession.  A recovery by a probe player is an instantaneous run.”

I checked an old casebook and it wasn’t clear on this point.

Sadly the mistake of disregarding the recovery by a prone player has been made in publication.  I checked the “Penalty Enforcements Made Easy” from 2009 and it says the enforcement is from the spot of the fumble.  That’s incorrect.

It was wrong of the NFHS to make this change.  It made an exception to an exception and confused things further.  They should have clarified the original principle.

Here is where the new rule makes a change.  If there is a fumble forward and out of bounds between the goal lines, A benefits by getting the penalty enforced from the dead ball spot.  If it’s backwards and out of bounds (beyond the NZ), A loses the benefit of the last run.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 12:16:46 PM by Harry »

Offline Bob M.

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed pass
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2011, 10:44:00 PM »
The NFHS made an unforced error with this rule change.  I’m also surprised at how many knowledgeable officials misinterpret this one.  The "end of the last run" doesn’t apply anymore, but the principle is important enough to discuss.

There is no difference between last year and this year when there is a recovery by a prone A player without a change of possession during the down.

The enforcement for this both in 2010 and 2011 is 15yds from the A20.  The recovery spot by A20 is a run.
The recovery spot by a prone player is considered an “instantaneous run” according to the NFHS Reddings Guide (2010, p.48).  I don’t think there’s much dispute over that.  There is rule support for this too.

2-41-9 . . . The spot where a run ends is:
a.   Where the ball becomes dead in the runner’s possession.
With this understood, the enforcement in the play above is clear.  It’s the same before and after the rule.

Here is what the 2010 Reddings Guide says:
It goes on to say
I checked an old casebook and it wasn’t clear on this point.

Sadly the mistake of disregarding the recovery by a prone player has been made in publication.  I checked the “Penalty Enforcements Made Easy” from 2009 and it says the enforcement is from the spot of the fumble.  That’s incorrect.

It was wrong of the NFHS to make this change.  It made an exception to an exception and confused things further.  They should have clarified the original principle.

Here is where the new rule makes a change.  If there is a fumble forward and out of bounds between the goal lines, A benefits by getting the penalty enforced from the dead ball spot.  If it’s backwards and out of bounds (beyond the NZ), A loses the benefit of the last run.

REPLY: Harry...I'm afraid you're mistaken about there not being any difference between 2010's and 2011's enforcement. There certainly is,and it is all predicated upon what has been the Fed's interpretation of what constitutes a "run" since this special enforcement for RTP was instituted. There is no definition for 'run,' and thus an interpretation is all we're left with. Here is a Federation Case Book play that appeared in all books up through 2007's that illustrates the Fed's interpretation:

9.4.4. Situation D: If passer A1 is roughed on a third down play from midfield, where is the penalty enforced from if A2 catches the pass at B's 40, but fumbles on B's 34 and A3 recovers at B's 30. RULING: The penalty is enforced from the end of the run, where A2 fumbled the ball. Following enforcement, it will be A's ball, first and 10 from B's 19-yard line.

Up through 2010, enforcement would have been from B's 34. Beginning now in 2011, enforcement will be from B's 30.

With all due respect, Mr. Redding is the NCAA Rules editor and in NCAA rules,A's prone recovery has always been interpreted as a run which begins and ends simultaneously. In NCAA, enforcement has always been from B's 30 for this play. Not so for Fed though.
Bob M.

LarryW60

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Re: Roughing the passer on a completed pass
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2011, 08:00:14 AM »
Sadly the mistake of disregarding the recovery by a prone player has been made in publication.

Sadly, another official has decided that a third-party publication (Reddings) is right and the NFHS Rule Book is wrong.  I don't know why people continue to choose the Reddings GUIDE over the RULE BOOK when there is an apparent conflict between the two.  The game isn't played using the Reddings Guide, it's played using the Rule Book.  If the 2010 Reddings Guide says one thing and the 2010 Rule Book contradicts it, guess which one is ALWAYS going to be the one actually "wrong" for the 2010 season?

Reddings is a nice supplemental publication to have on your bookshelf, but it will never have the same weight during a game as the rule book will.  Calling the rule book wrong and using Reddings as your justification is ludicrous.