Author Topic: More on Uns Conduct from Big XII (and other things)  (Read 11250 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8773
  • FAN REACTION: +229/-269
  • When you quit learning you quit living
More on Uns Conduct from Big XII (and other things)
« on: July 09, 2011, 09:16:40 PM »
Pinstripe salute prompts official review

By Austin Meek

 THE CAPITAL-JOURNAL

KANSAS CITY — Adrian Hilburn's Pinstripe Bowl salute, a play burned in the memories of Kansas State fans, has become a case study for interpreting college football's celebration rules.
 
The play, a 15-yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty assessed after the K-State receiver saluted the stands to celebrate a late touchdown, was projected to a packed ballroom Saturday at the Big 12 officiating clinic. K-State was forced to attempt a game-tying conversion from the 18-yard line, allowing Syracuse to escape with a 36-34 win.
 
The public backlash was swift and decisive, which encouraged the NCAA Football Rules Committee to revisit its interpretation of excessive celebration.

“That was the straw that broke the camel's back,” said Walt Anderson, the Big 12's coordinator of officials. “The rules committee realized the pendulum had swung too far to the left and accepted the blame for forcing us to call some of those things.”
 
Officials now are instructed to refrain from flagging spontaneous celebrations, reserving the penalties for premeditated or prolonged displays.
 
That directive goes hand-in-hand with a rule change, effective this season, that will take points off the board for celebration penalties that occur outside of the end zone. A receiver who turns around to taunt a defender at the 5-yard line, for instance, would be penalized from the spot of the foul, while celebration penalties that occur in the end zone will continue to be assessed on the extra point or kickoff.

In other words, officials hope to see fewer celebration penalties but stronger consequences when blatant infractions occur.

“The penalties are a little more severe, but we're asking them to back up some on how they're making those calls," said Ken Rivera, coordinator of officials for the Mountain West.

College football seemed to be cracking down on celebrations in recent years, a precedent established when Washington quarterback Jake Locker was flagged for flipping the ball over his shoulder in a 2008 game against BYU.
 
The call was controversial, even among officiating coordinators, but the NCAA's coordinator of officials supported the penalty. As a result, Rivera said, officials broadened their definitions of excessive celebration and penalties became more frequent.
 
“We had guys who started looking for things instead of letting it happen,” he said.
 
The trend culminated with a Big Ten crew flagging Hilburn's impromptu salute in the Pinstripe Bowl. Anderson's cell phone started buzzing seconds after the call was made, and the penalty dominated the next day's headlines.

That's the kind of attention officials hope to avoid, which prompted a re-examination of how the celebration rule is enforced.
 
“The pendulum now is swinging back to unless it's overt and everyone knows its unsportsmanlike, just leave it alone,” Rivera said. “Don't interject yourself in the game, especially late in the game.”
 
Rules for roughing
 
A subtle rule change could have a literal impact for punters and kickers.
 
Previously, there was no penalty if a rusher was illegally blocked into a punter or kicker. That interpretation has been expanded to include legal blocks, with blocks broadly defined to include all but the most insignificant contact.
 
That means rushers who engage a blocker can hit the kicker without fear of penalty, which could make teams more aggressive in trying to block punts and kicks.

“As a special teams coach, I'm sending the house,” Anderson said.
 
Replay here to stay
 
Booth reviews are an occasional source of agitation for viewers, but don't expect the role of replay to diminish.
 
“I'm a fan of instant replay,” Anderson said. “I love instant replay.”
 
Anderson is happy with the number of booth replays taking place – roughly 2.25 per game, on average – but would like to see shorter replay stoppages.
 
Fans might groan when an obvious touchdown gets reviewed, but having replay is far better than the alternative, Anderson said.
 
“In all honesty, it has helped us avoid injecting officiating into the game in ways that would be unfortunate,” he said. “We've eliminated a lot of mistakes that we don't even talk about now that if we didn't have replay would be a lot of your Monday morning headlines.”
 
Runoff rule in effect
 
Starting this season, college football will adopt a 10-second runoff for certain penalties that occur in the final minute of each half.
 
The impetus was the controversial conclusion of last year's Music City Bowl, in which North Carolina committed a substitution penalty in the closing seconds. The penalty stopped the clock, allowing North Carolina to kick a game-tying field goal with 1 second remaining.

Under the new rule, a penalty that stops the clock in the final minute could trigger the 10-second runoff. The opposing team has the option to decline the runoff, and the team that committed the penalty can elect to use a timeout instead of taking the runoff.

Offline zebra99

  • *
  • Posts: 605
  • FAN REACTION: +30/-3
u
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2011, 12:24:00 AM »
You know...I guess I just have to respond to this one - having officiated at the college level for 39 years - not that that gives me any more credibility than anyone else, but ............

They always expect us to hit a constantly moving target....

Not that long ago we were criticized by the media for not calling enough celebrations, etc.  The powers to reacted and issued "guidelines" designed to tighten things up.  Not a bad thing or unreasonable thing for the sake of the integrity of the game.  But soon came the cry from the media - "kids will be kids" and "let them play" and "they're just having some fun", etc., etc.

So then we somehow apparently started "...to look for things..."  Frankly, I don't recall anyone telling us to do that, or discussing that, or any of us talking about that before we walked into battle.

Now we have the proverbial "....straw that broke the camel's back..." (or should we say the media's back).  The pendulum has swung too far and we are to "....back up on some on how were making those calls".  I honestly have no clue what that means  ...  what is "back up" and what is "some".  The powers to be reacting to those who have stakes in things other than the integrity of the game.

And so the standard now is don't make the call "...unless it's overt and everyone knows its unsportsmanlike." And, apparently there is a different standard between early and late in the game!

I'm nothing more than a worker bee taking orders from my bosses.  Please just tell me what to do in clear and concise and workable language.

And who is "everyone" that we (and I include supervisors and conference commissioners) must please?  The coaches, the fans, the ADs, the conference commissioners, the media or how about Joe-Six Pack?

Who are the real stewards of this great game who are willing to stand up in the face of almost overwhelming pressure from those who have economic interests?  Is it the powers to be?  Is it us in the trenches?  Who is willing to mind the store?  Is it really the media who apparently knows all and speaks for all and whom we allow drive directly or indirectly the monetary largess that universities so desperately covet?

Why can't the powers to be take the high road, do the right thing for the sake of the game and create a scenario by which we can succeed on the field?

Why constantly create moving targets in reaction to those who don't own the game to avoid where we now are  - damned if we do and damned if we don't throw the flag?

OK, OK, I'll go back in my hole and pray that my crew hits that moving target!
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 09:15:09 AM by zebra99 »

El Macman

  • Guest
Re: More on Uns Conduct from Big XII (and other things)
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2011, 06:05:12 AM »
Hear! Hear! Well said, and it comes from someone with ultimate credibility.
Fortunately, I know an FBS commissioner (as well as his coordinator) that assured his staff that their judgment is trusted, and their UNS calls would be supported. Not exactly the same message the Big Mountain 12 appears to have received. More eggshells for those poor guys to walk on.





You know...I guess I just have to respond to this one - having officiated at the college level for 39 years - not that that gives me any more credibility than anyone else, but ............

They always expect us to hit a constantly moving target....

Not that long ago we were criticized by the media for not calling enough celebrations, etc.  Then, predictably, the powers to be soon issued "guidelines" designed to tighten things up.  Not a bad thing or unreasonable thing for the sake of the integrity of the game.

So then we somehow apparently started "...to look for things..."  Frankly, I don't recall anyone telling us to do that, or discussing that, or any of us talking about that before we walked into battle.

Now we have the proverbial "....straw that broke the camel's back..." (or should we say the media's back); the pendulum has swung too far and we are to "....back up on some on how were making those calls".  I honestly have no clue what that means  ...  what is "back up" and what is "some".  The powers to be reacting to those who have stakes in things other than the integrity of the game.

And so the standard now is don't make the call "...unless it's overt and everyone knows its unsportsmanlike." And, apparently there is a different standard between early and late in the game!

My question is real simple?  I am nothing more than a worker bee taking orders from my bosses.  Tell me what to do in clear and concise and workable language  .... who is everyone that WE (and I include supervisors and conference commissioners) must please?  The coaches, the fans, the ADs, the conference commissioners, the media or how about Joe-Six Pack?

Who are the stewards of this great game who are willing to stand up in the face of almost overwhelming pressure from those who have personal economic interests?  Is it the powers to be?  Is it us in the trenches?  Who is willing to mind the store?  Is it really the media who apparently knows all and speaks for all and we allow drive directly or indirectly the monetary largess that universities so desperately covet?

Why can't the powers to be take the high road, do the right thing for the sake of the game and create a scenario by which we can succeed on the field?

Why constantly create these moving targets in reaction to those who don't own the game and thus avoid where we now stand  - damned if we do and and damned if we don't throw the flag?

OK, OK, I'll go back in my hole and pray that my crew hits that moving target!

Offline sj

  • *
  • Posts: 247
  • FAN REACTION: +10/-3
Re: More on Uns Conduct from Big XII (and other things)
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2011, 04:56:34 PM »
Be careful about trusting that any newspaper article carries the full picture of what was said or meant. There are always things that get left out or nuances not understood by reporters. Not that the reporter has an agenda but there are always things said before and after quotes that don't make it in that change the meaning of what was being communicated.

Offline zebra99

  • *
  • Posts: 605
  • FAN REACTION: +30/-3
Re: More on Uns Conduct from Big XII (and other things)
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2011, 05:43:43 PM »
Be careful about trusting that any newspaper article carries the full picture of what was said or meant. There are always things that get left out or nuances not understood by reporters. Not that the reporter has an agenda but there are always things said before and after quotes that don't make it in that change the meaning of what was being communicated.

Excellent point SJ!  Thanks for pointing that out. I was obviously overeacting at bit :)

Offline sj

  • *
  • Posts: 247
  • FAN REACTION: +10/-3
Re: More on Uns Conduct from Big XII (and other things)
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2011, 06:04:15 PM »
Here's a classic. The guy obviously missed a lot of nuances, and just plain facts, to say the least.

http://www.kansascity.com/2011/07/09/3004426/college-officials-will-pocket.html#storylink=misearch

To read this one you would think that a new rule was put in during this last off season to penalize throat slashes. As well as other things that aren't so.

Offline zebra99

  • *
  • Posts: 605
  • FAN REACTION: +30/-3
Re: More on Uns Conduct from Big XII (and other things)
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2011, 06:10:02 PM »
Here's a classic. The guy obviously missed a lot of nuances, and just plain facts, to say the least.

http://www.kansascity.com/2011/07/09/3004426/college-officials-will-pocket.html#storylink=misearch

To read this one you would think that a new rule was put in during this last off season to penalize throat slashes. As well as other things that aren't so.

but let's assume the quotes are accurate, even without knowing the context, isn't this still somewhat of a moving target and a tacit acknowledgement that the media does play a "role" in the evaluation of our calls?

Hursk

  • Guest
Re: More on Uns Conduct from Big XII (and other things)
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2011, 08:16:42 AM »
I think Z99 is exactly right in characterizing this mess as a moving target, and it's clear that the public's (sometimes) media driven standards are in play.  But that's an acknowledged reality in the college game any more.  The media thrives on controversy, and TV pays the bills, so....
The thing that gets overlooked so often is that this salute and similar displays were often flagged, and the players (and presumably coaches) knew that such displays were a risk... they just didn't like it when the risk didn't go their way.  It could all have been avoided by the player waiting to get to the team area for such displays to the fans/media.
All of that being said, I'm not sure that the new "allow brief spontaneous emotional reactions" but penalize acts that are not "brief, spontaneous bursts of energy...but are clearly prolonged, self congratulatory, and that make a mockery of the game" is any less a moving target.   Was the salute a "burst of energy" or was it a planned choreographed response?  And if the latter... was it "self congratulatory?"   How different is that from the "kneeling 1st down"  signal a successful pass receiver gives?  Is that now "ok" if it's brief enough?
Like 99, I personally don't care... I just want to know what to be looking for when I'm back there on 3d&18 with a sacked QB and B77 begins to stomp and growl...
Thanks...feel better now...my burst of energy has subsided!

Diablo

  • Guest
Re: More on Uns Conduct from Big XII (and other things)
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2011, 09:32:25 AM »
I've always thought that a full-fledged military salute was a privilege between military personnel only.  A sign of recognition, not gratitude nor superiority, within members of the US military.  If a civilian, who is not a veteran, salutes a military person, is the military person obligated to return the salute?   Perhaps military people do not appreciate salutes coming from civilians.

I am even not sure it is appropriate for non-vet civilians to salute the flag.

Any knowing military out there?

Offline bushman

  • *
  • Posts: 169
  • FAN REACTION: +23/-3
Re: More on Uns Conduct from Big XII (and other things)
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2011, 11:49:08 AM »
"Boss I didn't see the guy do that really" or "A fly was in my eye" The target continues to move.  I guess you just keep it in your pocket.   pi1eOn

Hursk

  • Guest
Re: More on Uns Conduct from Big XII (and other things)
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2011, 01:05:08 PM »
"Boss I didn't see the guy do that really" or "A fly was in my eye" The target continues to move.  I guess you just keep it in your pocket.   pi1eOn

Yep...

Offline JasonTX

  • *
  • Posts: 2986
  • FAN REACTION: +113/-59
Re: More on Uns Conduct from Big XII (and other things)
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2011, 05:10:44 PM »
I've always thought that a full-fledged military salute was a privilege between military personnel only.  A sign of recognition, not gratitude nor superiority, within members of the US military.  If a civilian, who is not a veteran, salutes a military person, is the military person obligated to return the salute?   Perhaps military people do not appreciate salutes coming from civilians.

I am even not sure it is appropriate for non-vet civilians to salute the flag.

Any knowing military out there?

For military out of uniform it is acceptable for a vet to salute the flag or stand at position of attention.  Civilians should place hand on heart.

Saluting another person.  In the military, only a officer will be saluted.  Two enlisted members do not salute each other.  I wouldn't be offended if a civilian saluted me, but I was not an officer so it's not something that I deserved, but one may view it as a sign of respect.

Offline pgh guy

  • *
  • Posts: 142
  • FAN REACTION: +6/-8
Re: More on Uns Conduct from Big XII (and other things)
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2011, 09:47:08 AM »
It's no coincidence that the Salute from the Pinstripes bowl was used as the prime example.  In the days, nee weeks, following that game, we all weighed in on what we thought of the call and the timing.  I mentioned then that if that went uncalled, we would not still be talking about it to this day.  Depending on who or what conference you work for, you are a little more understanding of these types of acts.  I would much rather see a salute, whether proper or not (for all we know this player could have been ROTC) than a throat slash. 

Many NFL coordinators would tell you that something as simple as a salute would not be enough to flag. However, in this circumstance, the officials who flagged this were instructed in their post-season training tape to flag salutes, which many here may or may not be aware of.  It was of course defended by our late national coordinator as one of his final acts, but did anyone notice any words of support from the actual coordinator to the press?  There you have it...
I love this game!

Offline beaye1

  • *
  • Posts: 51
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-2
Re: More on Uns Conduct from Big XII (and other things)
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2011, 12:58:05 PM »
For military out of uniform it is acceptable for a vet to salute the flag or stand at position of attention.  Civilians should place hand on heart.

Saluting another person.  In the military, only a officer will be saluted.  Two enlisted members do not salute each other.  I wouldn't be offended if a civilian saluted me, but I was not an officer so it's not something that I deserved, but one may view it as a sign of respect.

There is actually one time when enlisted members could be: CMH recipients
"Although not required by law or military regulation, members of the uniformed services are encouraged to render salutes to recipients of the Medal of Honor as a matter of respect and courtesy regardless of rank or status"