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Author Topic: QB under the guard  (Read 12850 times)

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cbrunnjo

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QB under the guard
« on: October 15, 2012, 10:26:44 AM »
Is it legal for the QB to line up under the guard?
It was flagged in my game but can't find support in the Rule or Case Book.
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Offline Curious

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Re: QB under the guard
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2012, 10:46:28 AM »
Foul: Illegal formation (position)

Rule 7-2-3 defines where the "player in position to receive the snap" must be if the snap is between the snapper's legs.  If he is not, he must be in legal position as a back per 2-32-3.
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maven

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Re: QB under the guard
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2012, 10:47:00 AM »
Two points: first, 'guard' is not defined in the rule book.

Second, the only permissible way for a (just one) back to break the plane of the nearest lineman is to be behind the snapper in position to receive the snap. Being under the guard would be a formation foul at the snap. 7-2-3
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Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: QB under the guard
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2012, 10:47:36 AM »
There is an exception that allows a back (QB) to break the waist of a lineman and still be a back IF he is in position to take a direct hand to hand snap.  If he lines up under a guard, then he doesn't meet that exception, and now he's a mugwump, neither a back nor a lineman, and that's an Illegal Formation foul if he is there at the snap.
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Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: QB under the guard
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2012, 10:49:09 AM »
Wow, three answers posted in about a minute, all saying basically the same thing.

I think we have this one covered.
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cbrunnjo

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Re: QB under the guard
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2012, 10:50:59 AM »
Yes, we have this one covered.
Exactly what I was thinking. Thanks guys
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maven

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Re: QB under the guard
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2012, 10:56:08 AM »
Quote from: Atlanta Blue on October 15, 2012, 10:47:36 AM
If he lines up under a guard, then he doesn't meet that exception, and now he's a mugwump, neither a back nor a lineman, and that's an Illegal Formation foul if he is there at the snap.

I promise you, here and now, if we have a flag for this foul on Friday night, I will announce over the microphone: "Illegal mugwump, offense, 5 yard penalty from the previous spot, repeat the down."

I'll still give the IF signal, though, since I know no signal for illegal mugwump. :)
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Offline HLinNC

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Re: QB under the guard
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2012, 11:24:26 AM »
I imagine the signal would be bowing at the waist with your hand above your head with the five fingers extended.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mugwump

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Offline Rulesman

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Re: QB under the guard
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2012, 06:30:46 PM »
Quote from: maven on October 15, 2012, 10:56:08 AM
I promise you, here and now, if we have a flag for this foul on Friday night, I will announce over the microphone: "Illegal mugwump, offense, 5 yard penalty from the previous spot, repeat the down."

I'll still give the IF signal, though, since I know no signal for illegal mugwump. :)
Try this one:  nAnA
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110

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Re: QB under the guard
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2012, 10:24:03 AM »
Quote from: Rulesman on October 15, 2012, 06:30:46 PM
Try this one:  nAnA

Isn't that the old signal for Illegal Consumption of a Blue Slurpee?
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Offline Magician

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Re: QB under the guard
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2012, 11:56:06 AM »
Just a thought...the definition of a lineman is someone breaking the waist of the snapper.  If he's under the guard, he's likely breaking the waist of the snapper so he's not a mugwump.  He's also not eligible to go downfield on a legal forward pass or catch a forward pass but I'm not 100% convinced he's not a legal lineman.
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Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: QB under the guard
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2012, 12:08:05 PM »
Quote from: Magician on October 16, 2012, 11:56:06 AM
Just a thought...the definition of a lineman is someone breaking the waist of the snapper.  If he's under the guard, he's likely breaking the waist of the snapper so he's not a mugwump.  He's also not eligible to go downfield on a legal forward pass or catch a forward pass but I'm not 100% convinced he's not a legal lineman.

To be a lineman, his HEAD must be breaking the waist of the snapper.  If he's behind the guard (who is typically a foot or so deeper than the snapper), unless he is a giraffe leaning far forward, his head probably isn't past the waist of the snapper.

Besides, this is going to be a False Start long before it's an Illegal Formation.  As soon as he puts his hands up under the guard, the guard is going to jump anyway.   ^flag
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maven

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Re: QB under the guard
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2012, 01:30:33 PM »
Quote from: Atlanta Blue on October 16, 2012, 12:08:05 PM
To be a lineman, his HEAD or foot must be breaking the waist of the snapper.  If he's behind the guard (who is typically a foot or so deeper than the snapper), unless he is a giraffe leaning far forward, his head or foot probably isn't past the waist of the snapper.

Besides, this is going to be a False Start long before it's an Illegal Formation.  As soon as he puts his hands up under the guard, the guard is going to jump anyway.   ^flag

FIFY. And he has to break the PLANE of the snapper's waist, not the actual waist. :)

I agree with the likelihood of a FS!
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Offline FBUmp

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Re: QB under the guard
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2012, 11:00:29 PM »
Quote from: Magician on October 16, 2012, 11:56:06 AM
Just a thought...the definition of a lineman is someone breaking the waist of the snapper.  If he's under the guard, he's likely breaking the waist of the snapper so he's not a mugwump.  He's also not eligible to go downfield on a legal forward pass or catch a forward pass but I'm not 100% convinced he's not a legal lineman.

Most linemen I know are on the LOS.
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Offline Rulesman

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Re: QB under the guard
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2012, 08:48:31 AM »
Quote from: FBUmp on October 16, 2012, 11:00:29 PM
Most linemen I know are on the LOS.
Most linemen I know are SUPPOSED TO BE on the LOS. Those that aren't...  ^flag
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