Preliminary Signals

[fbljuj]

We worked a scrimmage the other day and the Ref insists that we use preliminary signals on all penalties. We had a dead ball false start so gave the signal twice? I know in college we just give it once and if there is an obvious situation (OPI and the defense intercepts) we don't ask and just decline the penalty. In high school, in that situation would we give a preliminary for OPI, ask the capt. if they want to keep the ball and then give the signal to decline? Seems like allot of wasted effort and time.

[Rulesman]

Agree.

[AlUpstateNY]

The difference in Mechanic may simply be related to the assumed additional sophistication of operations and personnel at the Coillegiate level over the High School level.  Interscholastic football is designed for players, coaches and administrators associated with the game played by 9-12 graders, and has been generally adopted for various levels of youth football involving lower age, and experience players, their coaches and their administrators.

Providing moderate additional effort to better communicate seems a reasonable accomodation.

[bama_stripes]

No preliminary on pre-snap fouls or obvious declinations in our state.

[Rulesman]

No preliminary on pre-snap fouls or obvious declinations in our most states.

Fixed that for ya! 

Comment: We have bigger problems if high school players, coaches, fans and press box personnel cannot recognize the obvious in situations such as the one posed by fbljuj.

[TampaSteve]

Certainly we should follow what our State dictates we do; however, a preliminary signal on a DBF is not as common as NOT doing preliminary signal on DBF.

Goodness, in some college conferences you do not see R give the "dead ball" signal on DBF. - nor do you hear R say "dead ball" in his announcement.

[Ralph Damren]

While the NFHS Game Officials Manual makes no distinction between live & dead ball fouls regarding preliminary signals , I see no need for the obvious dead ball foul prelims to be made.On the obvious live ball fouls, I would still give a prelim. signal , have U march off the penalty, and follow with the full signal which would include : loss of down, first down or current down. I would also relay the # of the fouler to the sidelines as the coach usually wants to know. My enjoyment from flapping my arms tells me I may have been some sorta' bird in a previous life

[Atlanta Blue]

Goodness, in some college conferences you do not see R give the "dead ball" signal on DBF. - nor do you hear R say "dead ball" in his announcement.

They had better!  DBF are recorded separately from LBF for tracking purposes.

[TampaSteve]

They had better!  DBF are recorded separately from LBF for tracking purposes.

all due respect to AtlBlue.  But DBF fouls shut the play down, right?. 
So if we're shutting a play down before it goes off, by default it's DBF.
Unless I'm missing something, how would this making tracking harder?
all kidding aside though, some conferences are not giving DBF signal or saying "dead ball" or "before the snap" in their announcement.

[jg-me]

For NCAA the dead ball signal is now reserved for fouls after the play. The term 'prior to the snap' is to be used only when there could be some question as to whether the ball had become alive or not. Quite sure this is in the current CCA manual.

[AlUpstateNY]

Is there some tangible benefit gained by reducing the clarity of signals, especially on the HS, or even lower "Youth Football" levels that, at times may inadvertently suffer from a loss of concentration of sideline personnel, about what may have actually happened on the playing field?

The reverse question might be, "is there anything negative about giving clarifying preliminary signals" considering that their primary intent is to explain what has actually happened

[Rulesman]

The reverse question might be, "is there anything negative about giving clarifying preliminary signals"...

IMO they are redundant and slow the pace of the game. Don't we regularly complain how long it now takes to play a high school game? 30 seconds here; 30 seconds there... they all add up.

[TampaSteve]

IMO they are redundant and slow the pace of the game. Don't we regularly complain how long it now takes to play a high school game? 30 seconds here; 30 seconds there... they all add up.

Agreed. 
In some folks opinion, and some conferences too, once the R's signal/announcement is completed, the U should have already marched & verified with H and we should be ready to go.

[bama_stripes]

The reverse question might be, "is there anything negative about giving clarifying preliminary signals" considering that their primary intent is to explain what has actually happened

I believe the "primary intent" of instituting preliminary signals was to let the offended coach decide whether to accept or decline the penalty.  If there's no option, as on a pre-snap foul, why bother?

[Rulesman]

I believe the "primary intent" of instituting preliminary signals was to let the offended coach decide whether to accept or decline the penalty.  If there's no option, as on a pre-snap foul, why bother?

In reality, there is an option on pre-snap fouls. They can be declined, but rarely is this option exercised.

[Atlanta Blue]

all due respect to AtlBlue.  But DBF fouls shut the play down, right?. 
So if we're shutting a play down before it goes off, by default it's DBF.
Unless I'm missing something, how would this making tracking harder?
all kidding aside though, some conferences are not giving DBF signal or saying "dead ball" or "before the snap" in their announcement.

No.  A PF after the play (i.e., a late hit OOB) is a DBF.  It doesn't shut the play down, the play was already over.  And the NCAA has asked us to record DBFs separately from LBFs.

[VALJ]

I confess I can't think of a reason to decline a pre-snap foul from a competition standpoint, though there may be something I'm missing.  While it's true that there is an option, I've never seen a pre-snap foul declined, and would be willing to bet that nobody has seen it more than one hand's worth of times. 

FWIW, our association tells us to just give the signal and march it off, if necessary, where it's an obvious choice.

[prab]

I have seen pre-snap fouls declined when kicking angles may be a consideration on trys or punts.  However, I readily admit that I haven't seen it very often.

[HLinNC]

I confess I can't think of a reason to decline a pre-snap foul

Happens quite frequently, in my experience, on encroachment by R on the try.

[Atlanta Blue]

Happens quite frequently, in my experience, on encroachment by R on the try.

Exactly.  If we change our mind and decide to go for two, then yes, we accept.  But if we are going to kick anyway, we'll decline.  I don't want to move the kicker up a yard and half.

There was one night the defense jumped into the NZ three straight times on a try.  On the third, we asked if we could retroactively accept all three.  I think the R was almost HACKED off enough to let us do it!

[TampaSteve]

No.  A PF after the play (i.e., a late hit OOB) is a DBF.  It doesn't shut the play down, the play was already over.  And the NCAA has asked us to record DBFs separately from LBFs.

Come on.  Did we need to say a 'DBF after the RFP shuts the play down'?  PF and DBF on the LOS are apples & oranges.  Are you saying to accurately record a DBF v a LBF on a false start, you need to see the 'dead ball' signal?

[VALJ]

Happens quite frequently, in my experience, on encroachment by R on the try.

Exactly.  If we change our mind and decide to go for two, then yes, we accept.  But if we are going to kick anyway, we'll decline.  I don't want to move the kicker up a yard and half.

There was one night the defense jumped into the NZ three straight times on a try.  On the third, we asked if we could retroactively accept all three.  I think the R was almost HACKED off enough to let us do it!

And that's why I shouldn't post when I'm having a busy day at work...   

[Ralph Damren]

Some odds & ends...... (1) a delay of game foul late in a period may be declined so the clock can start on the RFP if the previous play allowed; (2) Signal #7 - dead ball - will advise the coaches, press box, fans and the such that the foul occured after the play finished so the down wouldn't be replayed . Tuesday Trivia Tester  : There are 2 fouls that require three signals, who can name 'em the quickest .. start the clock .......

[AlUpstateNY]

I believe the "primary intent" of instituting preliminary signals was to let the offended coach decide whether to accept or decline the penalty.  If there's no option, as on a pre-snap foul, why bother?

Remember, we're talking HS.  Might there be reason the offendING coach might want to know what's going on.  Also, how exactly does a preliminary signal prevent, or impede, "the U should have already marched & verified with H and we should be ready to go."?  Are preliminary signals actually a valid cause of HS football games taking too long, or is is just part of an obsession to mimick NCAA mechanics?

[TampaSteve]

Back to square1: Do whatever your State mechanics say to do (and/or your Conference Supervisor); however, those doing a preliminary signal for a FS are in the minority.