loose ball

[toma]

SITUATION: With 4th and Goal at the B7, A33 accepts a direct hand-off and is running the ball. At the B5 yard line, A33 fumbles the ball. B82 cleanly recovers the ball at the B2 yard line and begins to run. During A24's attempt to tackle B82, the ball comes loose at the B3. While the ball comes loose (a) the ball, on its own force, goes out of the back or side of the end zone; or (b) on the B2 yard line, A68, trying to avoid B from recovering the ball, bats the ball, but the ball shoots into B's end zone where it is recovered and downed by B42; or (c) is recovered and downed by A12 in B's end zone; or (d) is recovered by B42 at the 1 yard line, and trying to evade a tackle, enters his own end zone and is tackled there.

[maven]

SITUATION: With 4th and Goal at the B7, A33 accepts a direct hand-off and is running the ball. At the B5 yard line, A33 fumbles the ball. B82 cleanly recovers the ball at the B2 yard line and begins to run. During A24's attempt to tackle B82, the ball comes loose at the B3. While the ball comes loose (a) the ball, on its own force, goes out of the back or side of the end zone; or (b) on the B2 yard line, A68, trying to avoid B from recovering the ball, bats the ball, but the ball shoots into B's end zone where it is recovered and downed by B42; or (c) is recovered and downed by A12 in B's end zone; or (d) is recovered by B42 at the 1 yard line, and trying to evade a tackle, enters his own end zone and is tackled there.

The key to EZ questions is force: which team forced the ball into the EZ (it's always one team or the other, never the ball "on its own force). So:

a) The force that put the ball in the EZ was B's fumble. When the ball becomes dead there, the result of the play is a safety.
b) A put the ball in the EZ, so when B recovers it there the result of the play is a touchback.
c) If B's fumble put the ball in the EZ, the result of the play is a TD.
d) B put the ball in the EZ, so when it becomes dead there the result is a safety.

[HLinNC]

A) The ball cannot have its "own force".  The initial force is provided by B82's fumble.  Safety by B.
B) Assuming the ball was grounded, A 68 batting a loose ball created a new force, touchback.  Enforce illegal batting from the basic spot of the 20 yd line.  1-10 B from the B 35.  If the ball was in flight, the bat is not a new force and thus would be a safety on B.
C) Possession of a live ball in the opponent's end zone is a TD.
D) Safety, momentum does not apply.  B was in possession of the ball and thus not the "defense" at this point.

[Wingmanbp]

Is there not a 4th down fumble rule in NFHS? Wouldn't the ball go back to the spot of the fumble in all situations except picked up by A33?

[HLinNC]

Is there not a 4th down fumble rule in NFHS?

No

[Ralph Damren]

Both maven & HL in NC nailed it . A couple of points to remember on loose balls near the goalline : (1) In the OP, any ballcarrier entering his own endzone to avoid a tackle would never be protected by the "momentum rule". (2) While a muff can add a new force to a grounded fumble, the ball merely touching an unsuspecting player would not. Example - A1 fumbles at his own 2,grounded ball bounces of helmet of unsuspecting B1 @ A-3 and ricochets back and off pylon = safety.(3) The loose ball has to be grounded before a new force can be added. Example - A1 fumbles at his own 2, B1 muffs  ungrounded fumble back and off pylon = safety. (4) On 4th down, keep a weary eye on an Ivy-League bound runner intentionally "fumbling" the ball forward in an attempt to gain a 1st down / TD. While we don't have a 4th down fumble rule, we do have a yellow hankie for an illegal forward pass, a LOD foul.   

[Ump33]

SITUATION: With 4th and Goal at the B7, A33 accepts a direct hand-off and is running the ball. At the B5 yard line, A33 fumbles the ball. B82 cleanly recovers the ball at the B2 yard line and begins to run. During A24's attempt to tackle B82, the ball comes loose at the B3. While the ball comes loose
 (a) the ball, on its own force, goes out of the back or side of the end zone; or
 (b) on the B2 yard line, A68, trying to avoid B from recovering the ball, bats the ball, but the ball shoots into B's end zone where it is recovered and downed by B42; or
 (c) is recovered and downed by A12 in B's end zone; or
 (d) is recovered by B42 at the 1 yard line, and trying to evade a tackle, enters his own end zone and is tackled there.

A) The ball cannot have its "own force".  The initial force is provided by B82's fumble.  Safety by B.
B) Assuming the ball was grounded, A 68 batting a loose ball created a new force, touchback.  Enforce illegal batting from the basic spot of the 20 yd line.  1-10 B from the B 35.  If the ball was in flight, the bat is not a new force and thus would be a safety on B.
C) Possession of a live ball in the opponent's end zone is a TD.
D) Safety, momentum does not apply.  B was in possession of the ball and thus not the "defense" at this point.

I am not convinced that the Illegal Bat would be enforced from the 20 per 10-4-5d. I believe 10-4-4 applies and B could take the Result of the Play (Touchback B's ball 1st & 10 @ the 20) or enforce the Illegal Bat from the end of B82's run (Fumble at the 3 yd line ... B's ball 1st & 10 @ the 18 yd line)

[Ralph Damren]

Ump33 - IMHO, Rule 10-4-6 would apply here. B had possession ,per  2-34-2, and its opponent was responsible , via an illegal bat, for forcing the ball into the endzone. Make sense ??

[HLinNC]

 ART. 4 . . . The basic spot is the spot where the related run ends for a foul which occurs during a running play as defined in 10-3-2.   (The related run ended in the field of play and then B fumbled so its not a running play.)

ART. 5 . . . The basic spot is the succeeding spot:

a. For an unsportsmanlike foul.

b. For a dead-ball foul.

c. For a nonplayer foul.

d. When the final result is a touchback.  (Fairly evident here)

NOTE: The succeeding spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the subsequent kickoff as in 8-2-2, 8-2-3, 8-2-4 and 8-2-5.

ART 6 . . . The basic spot is the 20-yard line for fouls by either team when the opponent of the team in possession at the time of the foul is responsible for forcing the ball across the goal line of the team in possession, and the related run ends in the end zone and is followed by a loose ball, regardless of where the loose ball becomes dead.  (The scenario as is described is what occurred- B fumbled, A is the opponent of the possessing team at the time of the foul and also was responsible for forcing it across)

[Ump33]

Ralph & HL,
10-4-6 . . . The basic spot is the 20-yard line for fouls by either team when the opponent of the team in possession at the time of the foul is responsible for forcing the ball across the goal line of the team in possession, and the related run ends in the end zone and is followed by a loose ball, regardless of where the loose ball becomes dead.

The Case Book Plays for 10.4.6 have (1) B intercepting A’s pass in the end zone (2) then a foul is committed (3) and then the related run ends in the EZ. Also, the 2008 NFHS Football Rule Change PPT for 10-4-6 follows the same order … (1) intercepted pass in the EZ (2) a foul is committed (3) the related run ends in the EZ.
 
IMHO, I believe the rule 10-4-6 implies that there is possession in the EZ by the opponent of the team that put the ball in the EZ and then there is a foul by either team. These fouls can be enforced from the 20.

In the OP the related run ends on 3 yd line when B82 fumbled. (2-41-9b & 10-3-3b . . . The spot where a run ends is where the runner loses player possession if his run is followed by a loose ball.) Any fouls that happen while the ball is loose are part of the related running play (10-4-4 . . . The basic spot is the spot where the related run ends for a foul which occurs during a running play as defined in 10-3-2.)

Since the Illegal Bat happened after B82’s fumble and before the recovery by B42, the foul is part of “B82’s running play” and if accepted, enforcement is from the 3 yd line. Your thoughts?

[HLinNC]

How can the foul by A68 be part of B82's running play when B82 no longer has possession of the ball?
For this example, it would be a loose ball play with the B82 run being "related".

Result of the play is a touchback, succeeding spot enforcement applies from the 20 under 10-4-5d with A's Illegal Bat.

[Ump33]

How can the foul by A68 be part of B82's running play when B82 no longer has possession of the ball?
For this example, it would be a loose ball play with the B82 run being "related".

This does not meet the requirements of a Loose Ball Play:
2-33- 1 . . . A loose-ball play is action during:
a. A free kick or scrimmage kick other than post-scrimmage kick fouls.
b. A legal forward pass.
c. A backward pass (including the snap), an illegal kick or fumble made by A
from in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change of team possession.
d. The run or runs which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward
pass, backward pass or fumble.

It is a Running Play per 10-6 All But 1
… A running play is any action which is not a loose-ball play.
1. In or behind the neutral zone in either of the following:
a. It includes a run not followed by a loose ball.
b. A run followed by an illegal forward pass.
2. Beyond the neutral zone:
a. It includes a run.
b. A run followed by a loose ball, including an illegal forward pass or illegal kick. A run ends when a runner loses possession but the related running play continues until the ball becomes dead or some player again gets possession.

Result of the play is a touchback, succeeding spot enforcement applies from the 20 under 10-4-5d with A's Illegal Bat.

I do not think 10-4-5d is meant to apply because the foul happened prior to possession in the end zone. How would the following be enforced ... 2nd & 7 on the B17 and QB A12 runs to the B5. During A12’s run, A77 holds at the 14. When A12 is hit at the 5, he fumbles and the ball rolls into the end zone and is recovered by B in the end zone making “the final result a touchback.”

[mardunn]

I agree with Ump33, but this is a really, really strange set of rules.

By 2-33-1c, technically B82's fumble does not start a loose ball play.  He's not on Team A (team designations don't change until the next ready), so 2-33-1c doesn't apply.  Since it's not a loose ball play, it has to be a running play.

Where did the run end?  2-41-9b tells us that "The end of the run is where the runner loses possession if his run is followed by a loose ball."  This is really strange to me.  The run is followed by a loose ball, but does not start a loose ball play by rule.

So where do we enforce the penalty from?  Here's where we get some conflict.  Both 10-4-4 and 10-5-4d apply, but result in different enforcement spots.

[HLinNC]

Yes but 2-33-1d does apply.  What's the very last word in the rule?  Fumble.  The rule makes no distinction between A& B.

Sorry, but NOT being A has nothing to do with it.  While the terms A & B remain constant throughout the down, B became the "offense" when they gained possession of the ball.  There is no rule that only A can be part of a loose ball play.

Obviously we are at odds over the correct enforcement of this play.  We'll just have to disagree.

[mardunn]

How many loose ball plays occurred during this down, then?  It seems like we have 2.

Loose ball play started by the snap, running play started by B82's recovery, then a second loose ball play starting with B82's fumble?

That violates the fundamental that there can only be one loose ball play during a down.

B82's fumble is part of the same running play that started when B82 recovered the ball.

[bama_stripes]

"While the ball is loose (not in player possession)" is NOT the same as "loose ball play" if it is beyond the NZ or after a COP.

[Magician]

"While the ball is loose (not in player possession)" is NOT the same as "loose ball play" if it is beyond the NZ or after a COP.

Correct. One loose ball play followed by multiple running plays.  They start when a player gets possession.  Where the related run ends (spot of fumble) and the end of the running play (spot of recovery) are two different things.

[allRight then]

From the moment that B takes possession of the ball during the down, it is IMPOSSIBLE for there to be a loose ball play for the remainder of the down.  Ump33, crew saving call, great job.  Reference 10-3 Types of play and 10-4-4.  Also, read pages 78 and 79 summary of enforcement spots.  Pay particular attention to page 79, the section on loose ball enforcement.

[Ralph Damren]

Charles O. Finley, the onetime  owner of the Oakland A's, had a sign over his desk with the following motto : "If two men agree on everything, then only one is needed".  IF this had been a muff by A and not an illegal bat, we would have.....a touchback. WHERE this was an illegal bat , we would have ...a touchback with the penalty enforced from the succeeding spot.  Prior to 1996, plays resulting in touchbacks but with  a foul on the opposition would have the basic spot of the goal line. B intercepts pass in endzone and dragged down by facemask = decline the penalty and take the TB or take the penalty and get ball at 15 = unfair. Along came Rule 10-4-5d & 10-4-6 and corrected that. We have a similar situation here : enforce from succeeding spot (touchback) takes ball to 35 while enforcing from the spot of the fumble (end of run) takes the ball to 18. It makes more sense to me that a play with a foul would provide better field position than the same play without. WHWM (white hat with mic) : (!) "The result of the play is a touchback, therefore the penalty for illegal batting will bring the ball to the 35." or (2) " Because of several rules that I pasted together, I've decided that the penalty for the illegal bat would only bring the ball out to the 18, but by declining it they get the ball at the 20 as a touchback." If I was the white hat, I would prefer to use choice #1. We can read things into rules and complicate things or we can try to keep it simple. I prefer keeping it simple.

[HLinNC]

Ralph- I muddied the waters getting into discussing loose ball plays and such.  The final reality is the result of the play is a touchback and thus we have direction on how that is handled under 10-4-5d.

[bama_stripes]

I prefer keeping it simple.

So I guess you voted in favor of previous spot enforcement for fouls behind the LOS?     

[Ralph Damren]

  Since the turn of the century adopting the NCAA version of fouls behind the LOS has been on the docket a few times but has never made it out of subcommittee for a final vote. I've always been an opponent of it for the following reasons : (1) It's a change that would benefit the offense and I feel the game is becoming more and more offensively- minded without the change. (2) It would need a string of exceptions such as intentional grounding, A fouling in A's endzone and the like. Exceptions tend to add to the confusion and are not popular additions. (3) The foul deep in the backfield may have prevented a QB sack..i.e....A1 is about to be sacked 15 yds behind LOS by B1 until A2 saves the day by "tackling" B1. Enforcement from the previous spot would only bring the holding penalty back 10 yards. Most zebras understand the "all but one" principle and feel that it is fair. More offense = more TDs = +4:30 down time between each = longer games. Those in favor of longer games should vote for this change!

[VALJ]

And, Ralph just set a new record for consecutive smileys in one post...

[Ralph Damren]

And, Ralph just set a new record for consecutive smileys in one post...

I was merely trying to illustrate the varying emotions regarding longer games - note: only one smiley face is actually smiling. The 8 faces represent those zebras of the Big 12 Conference that is experimenting with 8 this year. The smiling face  is that of the alternate referee -the new guy.

[bama_stripes]

(3) The foul deep in the backfield may have prevented a QB sack..i.e....A1 is about to be sacked 15 yds behind LOS by B1 until A2 saves the day by "tackling" B1.

A1 gets tackled by B1 15 yds behind the LOS.  In the process, B1 grabs & pulls A1's facemask.  Why should A1 have to be smart enough to fumble in order to get previous spot enforcement?