Quads, Elligible?

[robin083]

Here's a scenario:

A lines up with quad receivers to the left side of the linemen. From the sideline to the line, the status of those receivers with respect to the line of scrimmage (LOS) are as follows: A1 on LOS; A2 off LOS; A3 on LOS; A4 off LOS.  Can A3 receive a legal forward pass that does not cross the line of scrimmage?

Thank you and ask questions if my scenario doesn't make sense.

[mardunn]

From the situation you described, A3 is not eligible and cannot touch a forward pass behind, in, or beyond the neutral zone.  A1 is eligible due to being on the end of the line, A2 and A4 are eligible due to being off the line.

Rule references:
7-5-6a: All A players eligible by position and number include those who, at the time of the snap, are on the ends of their scrimmage line or legally behind the line...

7-5-13: An ineligible A player has illegally touched a forward pass if he bats, muffs or catches a legal forward pass.

[robin083]

Thanks. At first I thought A3 would be eligible, but talked myself out of it. Thank you for confirming it.

[Rulesman]

I gather you weren't lurking around this board during the era of the A-11. 

[bama_stripes]

I gather you weren't lurking around this board during the era of the "The offense that shall not be named". 

Just ruined my lunch...................

[TampaSteve]

Think: "anyone on the line, inside the guy on the end of the line, aint eligible." (obviously, this is what a wing guy would think to himself and certainly too, it's up to the center where the phrase applies)

The way I'm wired I have to use unusual terms/thoughts at times.
Goodness, for me to remember th differece between a multiple foul and a double foul probably is not printable.  But hey, I sure do know the difference.

[maven]

Thanks. At first I thought A3 would be eligible, but talked myself out of it. Thank you for confirming it.

Right.

Next question: what happens when he runs his route after the snap, but the pass goes to eligible A1?

[bama_stripes]

Right.

Next question: what happens when he runs his route after the snap, but the pass goes to eligible A1?

Nuttin', honey.  Pass was behind the NZ

[TampaSteve]

Right.

Next question: what happens when he runs his route after the snap, but the pass goes to eligible A1?

aint got nothing.

[maven]

Nuttin', honey.  Pass was behind the NZ

Good. And if the pass is beyond the NZ?

[JKinGA29]

Good. And if the pass is beyond the NZ?

Well then A3 is going to wish it weren't...Ineligible Downfield.

[mardunn]

So let's say that A3 breaks alone 30 yards downfield and catches a pass.  How many fouls do we have and which one is the one B should pick?

[HLinNC]

A3 is ineligible downfield and commits illegal touching when he catches the pass.  Illegal touching is 5 yds and LOD so B should want that foul enforced.

[mardunn]

Although illegal touching is ostensibly the more severe of the two fouls because of the LOD provision, it's enforced from the basic spot.  Since the basic spot is 30 yards downfield, the line-to-gain would still be reached after the 5 yard mark off and the LOD wouldn't apply.  1st and 10 A.

EDIT: I'm now rethinking this logic.  What's the basic spot for a pass caught by an ineligible??

Ineligible downfield is enforced from the previous spot, so the down would be replayed with the yardage penalty applied. 1st and 15 A, from further back.

If A3 was truly *alone* downfield and the only receiver in the area, you could conceivably have a third foul on the play.  It is an illegal forward pass if a pass is thrown into an area where there are no eligible offensive receivers.  If you could make the call for illegal forward pass, that's the one that B would want since it's 5 yards and loss of down from the spot where the pass was thrown. 2nd and 18ish A, from even further back.

[mardunn]

Ok, looking back on it, I think I'm wrong. The pass is obviously a loose ball play. Since touching always precedes possession, the illegal touching foul occurred during the loose ball play. The basic spot for a loose ball play is the previous spot, therefore I think the illegal touching is enforced from the previous spot, LOD included.

[Atlanta Blue]

Ok, looking back on it, I think I'm wrong. The pass is obviously a loose ball play. Since touching always precedes possession, the illegal touching foul occurred during the loose ball play. The basic spot for a loose ball play is the previous spot, therefore I think the illegal touching is enforced from the previous spot, LOD included.

Now you've got it.

It's Inelegible Downfield.
It's Illegal Touching.
While Illegal Forward might be technically correct, that would be a stretch of what that rule is meant to prevent.

Illegal touching, 5 yards from the previous spot, LOD is the right choice.

[mardunn]

I still need some clarification, I think.  Rule 7-5-13:  An ineligible A player has illegally touched the ball if he bats, muffs or catches a legal forward pass.

The foul for illegal touching occurs simultaneous with the catch, not the "touch" necessarily.  It's not a bat, it's not a muff.

2-31-4: A forward pass ends when it is caught, touches the ground or is out of bounds.

It seems to me that the same act which ends the forward pass (and therefore the loose ball play) causes the illegal touching foul.  So...does the illegal touching occur during a loose ball play or a running play?  That's the key thing.  The rule book is clear that illegal touching is a basic spot enforcement.  But what's the basic spot?

References appreciated. 

[Atlanta Blue]

A receiver that touches the ball attempting to catch a pass either catches it or muffs it.  Either one is a foul.  And since touching always precedes catching, whether he catches it or not, he touched it first, and he did so during the pass.

The basic spot is the the previous spot. 

[mardunn]

A receiver that touches the ball attempting to catch a pass either catches it or muffs it.  Either one is a foul.  And since touching always precedes catching, whether he catches it or not, he touched it first, and he did so during the pass.

The basic spot is the the previous spot.

Maybe I'm being too pedantic, but my point is that (the way the rule is written) during a successful catch, it's the catch that causes the foul, not the touching, despite the name of the foul.  The catch also causes it to stop being a loose ball play.

[Atlanta Blue]

No, the catch does NOT cause the foul.  Suppose he tries to catch it and drops it.  Is it still a foul?  Yes, because he intentionally TOUCHED the pass.  TOUCHING it causes the foul, whether it is caught or not.

If he does catch it, then obviously, he intentionally touched it while being inelgible, which is by definition, Illegal Touching.

There is NO WAY the enforcement spot becomes the spot of the foul.  To do so would be to reward the offense for an illegal act.

[JKinGA29]

Maybe I'm being too pedantic, but my point is that (the way the rule is written) during a successful catch, it's the catch that causes the foul, not the touching, despite the name of the foul.  The catch also causes it to stop being a loose ball play.

It is a pass until the catch is completed but if the act of the catch itself is illegal then wouldn't you say the illegal act occurs during the pass and not after?  I agree that the wording of the rule is a bit murky but also note that it starts by saying "An ineligible A player has illegally touched a forward pass..." which (to me) implies that the foul occurs during the pass and not after.

Also...the reason it says "bats, muffs or catches" rather than "touches" is because it has to be an intentional act and "touching" alone is defined in Rule 2 as intentional or unintentional.

[mardunn]

No, the catch does NOT cause the foul.  Suppose he tries to catch it and drops it.  Is it still a foul? 

Yes, it's still a foul because the rule explicitly references a muff. It references a muff and a catch, not a touch.  Look at 7-5-13 I posted earlier. Despite the name of the foul, there are three very specific enumerated actions that can cause it.

I agree that the intent of the rule is probably to penalize from the previous spot, I'm just trying to justify it with explicit wording from the rule book.

[HLinNC]

You had it, but then you started over thinking it.

It's a loose ball play, enforced from the previous spot, unless behind the LOS.  Then it is a spot foul under ABO.
If you have Reddings NFHS, look at page 41 under Illegal Touching.

[Ump33]

You had it, but then you started over thinking it.

It's a loose ball play, enforced from the previous spot, unless behind the LOS.  Then it is a spot foul under ABO.If you have Reddings NFHS, look at page 41 under Illegal Touching.

mardunn,

HLinNC is correct ... when this Rule 7-5-13 was changed in 2006, Table 7-5 listed "ABO" as the Enforcement Spot for Illegal Touching. Unfortunately in 2007, Table 7-5 used the 2005 Enforcement Spot of "Spot of Touching." In 2008 to the present, Table 7-5 was change to list "Basic Spot" as the Enforcement Spot for Illegal Touching.

Rule 7-5-13:  An ineligible A player has illegally touched the ball if he bats, muffs or catches a legal forward pass.

If we restate Rule 7-5-13 to read ... An ineligible A player has illegally touched the pass if he bats, muffs or catches the ball. Now, we have an ineligible illegally touching a pass (Loose Ball Play ... Previous Spot if beyond the NZ, Spot Foul if in or behind the NZ)

Hope this helps

[Ralph Damren]

When an ineligible receiver used to touch (catch,bat,muff) a forward pass downfield it used to be offensive pass interference.That was treated as a loose ball foul with previous spot enforcement. Illegal touching was then touching of a forward pass in the backfield and under the ABO principle was enforced from the spot of the foul. When illegal touching was expanded to include an illegible receiver touching a pass downfield, the basic spot remained the same -the previous spot , as many of you guys stated : "The touch comes before the catch". It is confusing, but don't confuse it with illegal forward pass - which is treated as a running play, with the basic spot being the end of the run (spot of pass).