Author Topic: 2-5-3 clip/bib  (Read 2215 times)

Offline Jackhammer

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2-5-3 clip/bib
« on: July 25, 2013, 08:36:21 PM »
Doing annual review and am in rule 2.  Something jumped out I've not noticed before and it seems in conflict.

2-5-3
Such cases shall not be ruled clipping and/or BIB unless the game official sees the initial contact.  When in doubt, the contact is legal and not from behind. When the contact is ruled to be from behind, and the game official has question to the initial point of contact, it shall be ruled clipping.

So if the official has question to the initial point of contact, isn't that "in doubt".... seems contradictory...is the last sentence not intended to be connected to the first....probably missing something simple here
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Offline JKinGA29

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Re: 2-5-3 clip/bib
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2013, 09:28:36 PM »
I think it's meant to be two separate points: A) If you're not sure if it's from behind or not, it's not; B) If you know it's from behind but you're not sure if it's above the waist (BIB) or below (clipping), it's clipping.

That may not be what they mean but that's how I've always understood it.
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Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 2-5-3 clip/bib
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2013, 09:31:35 PM »
I think it's meant to be two separate points: A) If you're not sure if it's from behind or not, it's not; B) If you know it's from behind but you're not sure if it's above the waist (BIB) or below (clipping), it's clipping.

That may not be what they mean but that's how I've always understood it.

Gramatically, that makes sense, and I believe that is what they are saying.

I just disagree that the default should be clipping.  If you aren't SURE it was above or below the waist, seems like you should default to the lesser foul.

Offline JKinGA29

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Re: 2-5-3 clip/bib
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2013, 09:36:53 PM »
I just disagree that the default should be clipping.  If you aren't SURE it was above or below the waist, seems like you should default to the lesser foul.

I'm with you...my philosophy is that if I don't see it to be clearly below the waist, it's not.  That applies to front or back.
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Offline Jackhammer

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Re: 2-5-3 clip/bib
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2013, 10:12:30 PM »
Thanks JK, your explanation makes sense.

I guess my confusion comes from how can there be a question?  The rule says the official must see the initial contact...if you see the initial contact shouldnt you know if it's above the waist (BIB) or below the waist (clip)?

That's why my philosophy matches yours and blues....I think ya gotta see it
"The only whistle that kills a play is an inadvertent one"

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Offline Magician

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Re: 2-5-3 clip/bib
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2013, 06:18:54 AM »
Maybe this...front or back is advantage/disadvantage and clip is a safety foul. Err on the side of foul on safety fouls typically.

Offline TampaSteve

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Re: 2-5-3 clip/bib
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2013, 06:45:46 AM »
Certainly NF penalty calling axioms/philosophy varies from NCAA with several items.
FYI. in as far as "knowing" the foul:
When it comes to NCAA evaluations, officials are downgraded more on a "wrong call" than a "no call".
Thus all the more reason to KNOW...
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 08:23:23 AM by TampaSteve »

Offline VALJ

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Re: 2-5-3 clip/bib
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2013, 10:15:28 AM »
Maybe this...front or back is advantage/disadvantage and clip is a safety foul. Err on the side of foul on safety fouls typically.

That's the way it was explained to me.  If you think it may be an illegal block, it's legal.  If you know it's from behind and therefore illegal, but you're not sure whether it was above or below the waist, treat it as a clip.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: 2-5-3 clip/bib
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2013, 08:24:25 AM »
Back in 2002 when BIB was hulled out of clipping, the big concern was the vicious block in the back being under penalized. While most BIB fouls are no more than a push from behind, it was decided that when in doubt (similar to face mask & R-kicker/holder fouls), the major foul should prevail.

Offline maven

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Re: 2-5-3 clip/bib
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2013, 08:56:18 AM »
Back in 2002 when BIB was hulled out of clipping, the big concern was the vicious block in the back being under penalized. While most BIB fouls are no more than a push from behind, it was decided that when in doubt (similar to face mask & R-kicker/holder fouls), the major foul should prevail.

Isn't that a distinct point? On any blocking foul, if the contact warrants we can upgrade it to a PF.

That's not a "if in doubt" point, and indeed is contrary to the suggestion under consideration ("if in doubt, it's clipping") since upgrading precisely requires absence of doubt.
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: 2-5-3 clip/bib
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2013, 09:41:18 AM »
The feeling was to go the same route as the face mask and roughing / running into the kicker holder fouls. If you are unsure if a foul occurred, don't call it. :-X similar to our judicial system of "Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt". If you are sure there was a foul, but unsure if it was a "major" or "minor"; call the "major". I understand the confusion as the "When in Question" guide on page 82 of the Game Officials Manual doesn't list "BIB or Clipping"  but does list "Legal block or clip" and "Block above or below the waist". This is meant to mean when in doubt if there is a foul or not, there isn't. ??? :-\ :( :'( Hope this helps.