Complete or incomplete when carried

[dch]

Rule 2-4-1  The new definition that “clarified a catch”  made it murky for me. 
Per the new rule -- one of things that makes “a catch is the act of establishing player possession of a live ball which is in flight, and having the forward progress of the player in possession stopped while the opponent is carrying the player who is in possession and inbounds.”   The comments on the new rules, and the case book, and Reddings refer to situations where the airborne player trying to catch the ball is carried out of bounds – either forward or backward.  If he is carried out backward it is a catch – forward and it is incomplete. 
I understand that if he is airborne when he first possesses the ball and then “tackled or hit and driven” any direction he must have control of the ball when he contacts the ground inbounds to complete the catch.  If he first touches the ground out-of-bounds the pass is incomplete.

But, I’m not yet clear on exactly when the pass is complete on the carried situations.
a)    Per the comments on the 2013 changes on page 4 – “An airborne player who has forward progress stopped inbounds and is carried out of bounds by an opponent before contacting the ground is awarded a catch at the spot of forward progress.”  I assume that he must have possession of the ball when the opponent touches out-of-bounds.  If he loses control of the ball just after the opponent touches O.B. it is still a catch.
b)   What if the attempted catch and carry happen away from the sideline?  An airborne receiver possesses the ball and then he is contacted and carried 3 or 4 steps.  1) If he is carried forward I think it is clear that the play is alive and he must still have possession of the ball when he first touches the ground inbounds.  2)  What if he is carried backwards for 3 or 4 steps inbounds?  What if he loses control of the ball on the 2nd step, or the 3rd? 

After all of that I guess my question is --- when is a catch completed if the airborne receiver is carried  (but not out-of-bounds)?  When is the play dead by rule?  (please don't say when the whistle is blown)

[Magician]

My understanding of this change was to expand on last year's carry-out rule to remind us the player carried backward should be given forward progress at the spot where he gained possession.  He is not out of bounds and the clock should not stop (unless it's a first down or there is a penalty).

[Ralph Damren]

The change was to give rule book support for a case play that was put in after last years change. On occasion, a rule change will leave a gap that will need a case play with the rule tweaked the following year to clarify. I started working football games back in 1969 and don't recall ever seeing a player carrying an opponent who has the ball. I don't expect it to be an often occurrence.

[TampaSteve]

After all of that I guess my question is --- when is a catch completed if the airborne receiver is carried  (but not out-of-bounds)?  When is the play dead by rule?  (please don't say when the whistle is blown)

Seems IF he is carried laterally or backwards, THEN forward progress has been stopped, yes?

[bama_stripes]

Seems IF he is carried laterally or backwards, THEN forward progress has been stopped, yes?

That's the way I'm teaching it.  It's the way it was until last year's change.

[Sumstine]

If he is being carried in any direction to the extent that it looks awkward then progress is stopped and the catch is made. It needs to be an act not natural to football in order to kill the play and I expect that if any of us ever see it, we will feel confident in our decision to kill the play, in or out of bounds. A wrap and drive is not a carry so all of them will be incomplete when the receiver lands OOB.

[cducote]

In case play 7.5.4H(c) the receiver is carried airborne from the 3 to 1 yard past the goal line before he touches the ground OOB. Can anyone clearly explain why this is a touchdown? To me this doesn't meet the definition of a catch since he is still going forward? My thinking before reading this case was that a carry sideways or backward the receiver would be awarded the catch at the point the "carry" began.

Oh and I don't post much but much thanks to those of you who do!!

[Sumstine]

I think my post above covers most of it. Once you rule he is controlled and stationary in the air the play is over. Don't let him throw the guy to the ground head first. Get in a stop it. Like I said earlier, it will be awkward and deliberate. If you make the ruling at the one it is not a TD but if you make the ruling in the EZ it is.

In case play 7.5.4H(c) the receiver is carried airborne from the 3 to 1 yard past the goal line before he touches the ground OOB. Can anyone clearly explain why this is a touchdown? To me this doesn't meet the definition of a catch since he is still going forward? My thinking before reading this case was that a carry sideways or backward the receiver would be awarded the catch at the point the "carry" began.

Oh and I don't post much but much thanks to those of you who do!!

[dch]

Hi Ralph,

I also started officiating football in 1969.  Not on the field anymore but I keep involved with observing, mentoring, and a little teaching.
My reason for posing the original question was to try and get a better “rules based” understanding of a catch now that it can (in a specific situation) be completed without touching the ground.  The situation about carried backwards out-of-bounds is pretty well documented and understood.  It is less clear if the backwards carry never goes O.B. --- Specifically, if the receiver drops the ball while being carried.
It may well be that “I’ll know it when I see it” and “It’s dead and complete when the whistle blows” is as good as we can do based on the 2013 rule.

[Rulesman]

Don't over-analyze or over-think it. This is not rocket surgery.

[TampaSteve]

Don't over-analyze or over-think it. This is not rocket surgery.

agreed 100%

[mardunn]

In case play 7.5.4H(c) the receiver is carried airborne from the 3 to 1 yard past the goal line before he touches the ground OOB. Can anyone clearly explain why this is a touchdown? To me this doesn't meet the definition of a catch since he is still going forward? My thinking before reading this case was that a carry sideways or backward the receiver would be awarded the catch at the point the "carry" began.

The ruling is not a touchdown in the case book. 

The ruling in the case book is incomplete pass, which is consistent with lateral/backwards carry OOB = forward progress at point of carry, forward carry OOB = incomplete.

[Ralph Damren]

  My case book sez : *7.5.4 Situation H :" ......(c) grasped from behind and carried by B1 so that first contact with the ground by A2 is out of bounds 1 yard beyond the goal line."   RULING : "....In (c) it is a touchdown." IMHO, the rationale is that a receiver being carried backwards has his forward progress stopped while a receiver being carried forward gets credit for his forward progress to where he was finally dumped - when it's OOB in B's endzone, tell the band to play, the cheerleaders to prance and the prom queen to swoon for we have us a TOUCHDOWN!

[mardunn]

My case book must be old then.  I'm looking at the 2012 one since I don't have my 2013 yet.

The TD ruling makes much more sense to me though.  This just reinforces my belief that I shouldn't be looking at the case book.  Every time I do, it causes more confusion than resolution! 

[cducote]

Ralph,

Could you clearly spell out the reason this is a touchdown. I just can't wrap my head around what makes this a touchdown. I'm not saying it's not i just need to break through this brain-lock.

thx

[Ralph Damren]

Mardunn - when an "*" precedes the case it indicates that it is either new or been changed. Keep the faith, your 2013 books should be here soon.  Cducote - The "catch & carry" rule assumes that he has completed the catch inbounds. If he is carried backwards and dumped ,either inbounds or OOB, he would be given forward progress and it wouldn't be a clock stopper. If he is carried forward and dumped, he is given the forward progress and , if OOB, would be a clock stopper. Hope this helps.

[bama_stripes]

Mardunn - when an "*" precedes the case it indicates that it is either new or been changed. Keep the faith, your 2013 books should be here soon.  Cducote - The "catch & carry" rule assumes that he has completed the catch inbounds. If he is carried backwards and dumped ,either inbounds or OOB, he would be given forward progress and it wouldn't be a clock stopper. If he is carried forward and dumped, he is given the forward progress and , if OOB, would be a clock stopper. Hope this helps.

This make no sense.

If this happens short of the GL, it's incomplete, because his "progress" continued OOB and thus the catch was not completed.  If it happens well onto the field of play (no sideline involved), it's complete because he first touches down inbounds, and we give him his furthermost point of advance.

Why should this be any different when the GL is involved?

[cducote]

Rule 2-4-1  The new definition that “clarified a catch”  made it murky for me. 
Per the new rule -- one of things that makes “a catch is the act of establishing player possession of a live ball which is in flight, and having the forward progress of the player in possession stopped while the opponent is carrying the player who is in possession and inbounds.”   The comments on the new rules, and the case book, and Reddings refer to situations where the airborne player trying to catch the ball is carried out of bounds – either forward or backward.  If he is carried out backward it is a catch – forward and it is incomplete.  I understand that if he is airborne when he first possesses the ball and then “tackled or hit and driven” any direction he must have control of the ball when he contacts the ground inbounds to complete the catch.  If he first touches the ground out-of-bounds the pass is incomplete.

But, I’m not yet clear on exactly when the pass is complete on the carried situations.
a)    Per the comments on the 2013 changes on page 4 – “An airborne player who has forward progress stopped inbounds and is carried out of bounds by an opponent before contacting the ground is awarded a catch at the spot of forward progress.”  I assume that he must have possession of the ball when the opponent touches out-of-bounds.  If he loses control of the ball just after the opponent touches O.B. it is still a catch.
b)   What if the attempted catch and carry happen away from the sideline?  An airborne receiver possesses the ball and then he is contacted and carried 3 or 4 steps.  1) If he is carried forward I think it is clear that the play is alive and he must still have possession of the ball when he first touches the ground inbounds.  2)  What if he is carried backwards for 3 or 4 steps inbounds?  What if he loses control of the ball on the 2nd step, or the 3rd? 

After all of that I guess my question is --- when is a catch completed if the airborne receiver is carried  (but not out-of-bounds)?  When is the play dead by rule?  (please don't say when the whistle is blown)

If Redding says carried forward OOB then what makes this a TD? Is he wrong?

[mardunn]

This make no sense.

If this happens short of the GL, it's incomplete, because his "progress" continued OOB and thus the catch was not completed.  If it happens well onto the field of play (no sideline involved), it's complete because he first touches down inbounds, and we give him his furthermost point of advance.

Why should this be any different when the GL is involved?

The only interpretation I can think of is that his "progress" carried him past the plane of the goal line before his progress carried him out of bounds.

The parallel that makes sense to me are the airborne player at the pylon rulings where if the ball crosses the sideline before the goal line it's OOB and if it crosses the goal line before the sideline, it's a TD.

[cducote]

The only interpretation I can think of is that his "progress" carried him past the plane of the goal line before his progress carried him out of bounds.

The parallel that makes sense to me are the airborne player at the pylon rulings where if the ball crosses the sideline before the goal line it's OOB and if it crosses the goal line before the sideline, it's a TD.

But that's only if the player with the ball has already touched in bounds. In this case he didn't.

Also in the case of being carried out sideways or backwards the dead ball spot is where the "carry" began. If that applied in the forward scenario then the ball would be placed at the 1 yd line. If we are not applying that principle here then why would he get all those yards when he never touched inbounds? The carry rule says to be considered a catch forward progress would have to be stopped. He is still going forward so his progress hasn't been stopped. And since his progress hasn't been stopped then we have to hold the player to the regular catch criteria which includes touching something inboounds.

That's just my thinking. If I'm missing something please help.

[mardunn]

But that's only if the player with the ball has already touched in bounds. In this case he didn't.

Also in the case of being carried out sideways or backwards the dead ball spot is where the "carry" began. If that applied in the forward scenario then the ball would be placed at the 1 yd line. If we are not applying that principle here then why would he get all those yards when he never touched inbounds? The carry rule says to be considered a catch forward progress would have to be stopped. He is still going forward so his progress hasn't been stopped. And since his progress hasn't been stopped then we have to hold the player to the regular catch criteria which includes touching something inboounds.

That's just my thinking. If I'm missing something please help.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm reaching here.  But someone, somewhere was able to justify this since it's in the case book, lol. 

This is very strange though since I can think of two similar scenarios that have different rulings:

A player leaps airborne near the pylon, possesses the ball at the 1 yard line while airborne, travels into the end zone and lands out of bounds 1 yard beyond the goal line extended.  Ruling is incomplete pass, correct?

A player leaps airborne near the pylon, possesses the ball at the 1 yard line while airborne, is grabbed by a B player and carried on the same path and finally hits the ground out of bounds 1 yard beyond the goal line extended.  Case book ruling seems to indicate this is a TD?

Just seems....odd.

[bama_stripes]

The only interpretation I can think of is that his "progress" carried him past the plane of the goal line before his progress carried him out of bounds.

But he hasn't (yet) completed the catch.

Same play, but A82 is in the middle of the field laterally, 5 yds deep in the EZ.  He jumps and possesses the pass, but as he falls to the ground, the ball comes loose.  Incomplete, because the definition of "catch" hasn't been met.

In the case we're discussing (OOB past the GL), the catch hasn't been completed because A82 first touched down OOB and his forward progress hasn't been stopped by an opponent.

In addition, if it were the end line involved, rather than the sideline, would any of us rule a completed pass?  Same principle.

[cducote]

@Ralph

The "carry out" rule requires forward progress be stopped inbounds. In this case where he is carried forward the forward progress isn't stopped inbounds. So I don't think we can invoke the "carry out" portion of the catch rule. So if that's true then he would have to touch something inbounds to complete the catch.
Right now I believe the case book is wrong which would not be the first time.

Whaddya think?

[Ralph Damren]

I phoned a NCAA white hat friend, and he confirmed that the NCAA rule (4-1-3T & AR7-3-6III) is slightly different from ours.NCAA kills the play once the receiver is begun to being carried in any direction. Our rule completes the catch ounce the carry begins (2-4-1) but would remain alive if forward progress was being gained (2-15-2). Case *7.5.4 H(c) gives A the catch under (2-4-1) and the TD under 2-15-2. Hope this makes it clearer for some, know it won't make it clearer for all .

[cducote]

2-4-1 says forward progress must be stopped while the opponent is carrying the player and inbounds for 2-4-1 to apply.

I argue that forward progress was not stopped at all by the carry nor did this occur inbounds.