case play 7.5.4 sit H(c)

[cducote]

7.5.4 H (c)
A pass from A1 is thrown near the intersection of the sideline and the goal line. A2, running toward the goal line, leaps and possesses the pass at the 3-yard line and is forcibly: (c) grasped from behind and carried by B1 so that first contact with the ground by A2 is out of bounds 1 yard behind the goal line.
Ruling (c)-Touchdown

In this play I don't feel the criteria has been met to rule it a catch much less a touchdown.

A catch is 1. the act of establishing player possession of a live ball which is in flight, and first contacting the ground inbounds while maintaining possession of the ball or 2. having the forward progress of the player in possession stopped while the opponent is carrying the player who is in possession and inbounds.

So there are only two ways to make a catch outside of simultaneous catch. He obviously didn't meet criteria #1. I say he didn't meet #2 either since forward progress wasn't stopped by the "carry" nor was the forward progress stopped inbounds.

So IMO this should be ruled incomplete, not TD as the case book says. In the other thread on this general topic Ralph favored catch and BAMASTRIPES seems to be of the same thought as myself. What do y'all think?

[Bob M.]

REPLY: I retracted my original post since I'm not sure exactly what's meant by "...forward progress is stopped" in the definition of catch.

[cducote]

I wonder if they are considering his forward progress stopped and inbounds because he is no longer under his own power the moment the "carry" begins? That seems to be the only way he could meet the criteria to invoke the "carry-out" rule.

[Ump33]

Here is the interpretation we were given in North Carolina ...

The guideline for this is as follows – When the defender carries the receiver out of bounds, it is a catch. If the airborne receiver lands out of bounds after he is only bumped or otherwise contacted by the defender, the pass is incomplete.

The key is "the defender carries the receiver", direction does not matter. Forward progress will be determined by the foremost point of the ball while the receiver is being carried.

[maven]

Here is the interpretation we were given in North Carolina ...

The guideline for this is as follows – When the defender carries the receiver out of bounds, it is a catch. If the airborne receiver lands out of bounds after he is only bumped or otherwise contacted by the defender, the pass is incomplete.

The key is "the defender carries the receiver", direction does not matter. Forward progress will be determined by the foremost point of the ball while the receiver is being carried.

That's what we're getting in Ohio, too. The definition of 'catch' is being reinterpreted, not in terms of stopping forward progress, but in terms of being carried.

By interpretation, the definition of CATCH becomes: the act of establishing player possession of a live ball which is in flight, and either (a) first contacting the ground inbounds while maintaining possession of the ball or (b) while in possession and inbounds being carried by an opponent.

Judgments about forward progress to be made as usual.

Using this definition, 7.5.4H(c) makes perfect sense: it's a catch because the receiver gained possession and was inbounds when carried by an opponent. It's a TD because his forward progress took him past the GL before he was OOB.

[cducote]

Was his forward progress stopped inbounds?

[HLinNC]

Was his forward progress stopped inbounds?

The whole gist of the carrying exception, which is what this is-an exception, begins with the fact that it begins inbounds.  Under the interpretation given by Maven (Ohio) and Ump33(NC), forward progress has ended the moment the carry begins.  If they are OOB, then there is no carry.

Fundamental I.8 tells us that possession of a live ball in the opponent's end zone is always a touchdown.  Since the carry ended forward progress in the field of play and the ball broke the plane in possession of A, TD.

See also 2012 case play 4.3.3 Sit B (b).  Doesn't address the goal line per se' but does discuss the carry provision regarding officials determination of forward progress.

[bama_stripes]

OK, Maven & NC guys:

If we accept that a catch is completed when the carry begins; and
If we accept that forward progress stops when the carry begins --

How can we rule a TD in the case play when the carry began at the B-3 yd line?

[maven]

OK, Maven & NC guys:

If we accept that a catch is completed when the carry begins; and
If we accept that forward progress stops when the carry begins --

How can we rule a TD in the case play when the carry began at the A-3 yd line?

Yeah, that's not quite how I understand the interp.

The point of the Ohio (and, I think, the NC) interp is NOT to say that carry = forward progress stopped. The point is to say that carry = substitute for 1 foot down inbounds.

If that's correct, then forward progress disappears from the definition of catch. The receiver must have possession and either a foot down or be carried (any direction).

Ruling on forward progress would be done as usual. So, in the case play you have a catch because you have possession + carry. Then forward progress puts the ball in the EZ prior to the receiver touching OOB.

Too bad it's not what the rule says, but if you stick with the rule, then the (new) case 7.5.4H contradicts it!

[JKinGA29]

I agree that the inclusion of the term "forward progress" is a bit confusing.  Remember Rule 2-15-2 which defines "forward progress" for airborne players: "When an airborne player makes a catch, forward progress is the furthest point of advancement after he possesses the ball if contacted by a defender."  We've always applied this before in situations not involving the sideline (receiver leaps and grabs ball at the 2, gets driven back to the 5, gets the ball at the 2).

Now we have the new definition of a catch which says if the player gets carried (implies "no longer under his own power") while in possession of the ball, you have a catch.  So essentially if he's being carried he has completed the act of the catch and is thus a player in possession of a live ball, a.k.a. a runner.

So, like a runner, if he's taken backwards or straight sideways, then his furthest point of advancement is where he possesses the ball and begins being carried.  Ball became dead in bounds, clock continues to roll.  If he's taken forward, then his furthest point of advancement is determined once he crosses the sideline, clock stops. 

It appears that the Fed's interpretation is that if the B player wants to extend the courtesy of carrying the A player further downfield inbounds, or even across the goal line,  then Team A gets the benefit of that yardage.

[Bob M.]

...Too bad it's not what the rule says, but if you stick with the rule, then the (new) case 7.5.4H contradicts it!

REPLY: The Federation has a rule and a case play that contradict each other. OMG...say it ain't so! 

[bama_stripes]

Now we have the new definition of a catch which says if the player gets carried (implies "no longer under his own power") while in possession of the ball, you have a catch.  So essentially if he's being carried he has completed the act of the catch and is thus a player in possession of a live ball, a.k.a. a runner.

That would certainly make the Rule Book and Case Book align.  Unfortunately, it still doesn't address what happens in the field of play when the sideline is NOT involved.

PLAY 1:  A81 leaps & possesses a pass at the B-30 yd line.  B24 carries him forward to the B-27 yd line, where he hits the ground & the ball comes loose.  RULING?

PLAY 2:  A81 leaps & possesses a pass 9 yards deep in B's end zone.  B24 carries him forward and his first contact is 2 yards past the end line.  RULING?

Change 7.5.4 sit H(c) back to the 2012 wording & everything would be hunky and dory.

[Rulesman]

Here is the interpretation we were given in North Carolina ...

The guideline for this is as follows – When the defender carries the receiver out of bounds, it is a catch. If the airborne receiver lands out of bounds after he is only bumped or otherwise contacted by the defender, the pass is incomplete.

The key is "the defender carries the receiver", direction does not matter. Forward progress will be determined by the foremost point of the ball while the receiver is being carried.

I believe this is the interpretation we all used prior to last year. Don't overthink this... unlike the NCAA BBW rules, this is not that complicated!

[Magician]

I believe this is the interpretation we all used prior to last year. Don't overthink this... unlike the NCAA BBW rules, this is not that complicated!

Agree 100%.  Rules allows for a ruling of catch if player possesses ball while airborne and is carried out (very rare). Doesn't matter what direction or relationship to end zone.  This year a clarification/reminder was added that if the carry is back toward the receiver's goal line to award forward progress and keep the clock going.

[NorCalMike]

Here is the interpretation we were given in North Carolina ...

The guideline for this is as follows – When the defender carries the receiver out of bounds, it is a catch. If the airborne receiver lands out of bounds after he is only bumped or otherwise contacted by the defender, the pass is incomplete.

The key is "the defender carries the receiver", direction does not matter. Forward progress will be determined by the foremost point of the ball while the receiver is being carried.

This pretty much the interpretation in California. The California Ruler Interpreter(he is also on the NFHS editorial committee) is a member of my association and this is how he explained it. The key is that the B player must actually carry the receiver. If the receiver is just pushed and lands OOB then no catch.

[AlUpstateNY]

If you're not looking for trouble with this inoccuous change, you won't find anything different than what the understanding and interpretation has been.  However, if you are compelled to skin this down to the gnat's eyelash and gramatical correctness level, you'll be able to find all the trouble you're looking for.

It's too bad they didn't use a better word than "carried".

[Magician]

It's too bad they didn't use a better word than "carried".

What word would you recommend. It describes pretty clearly what an opponent must do in order for a player to complete a reception without touching first in bounds.  He needs to hold the player so he doesn't return to the ground (as opposed to a push or shove) and then take several steps before dropping him OOB.  Carry seems to be a nice, simple term for that.

[Ralph Damren]

Lugged could be considered  the same as carried. (1) I played high school football. (2)I worked as a bag boy at the local supermarket. (3) On occation, I would carry/lug a 50 lb. bag of potatos to a customer's car. (4) Over the shoulder, it was a tough carry/lug and the bag wasn't struggling. (5) Most high school receivers weigh more then 50 lbs. = this will not occur very often. To be ready for the few times that it does -- (1) once the receiver begins to be carried, the catch is completed. (2) If he's carried backwards his forward progress has stopped. (3) If he's carried forward , his forward progress hasn't stopped per 2-15 .We see Haley's Comet every 76 years. We may see this even less.

[VALJ]

Lugged could be considered  the same as carried.

Down South, we'll say that he was "toted", rather than lugged. 

[AlUpstateNY]

What word would you recommend.

I'm perfectly comfortable and satisfied with "carried" and the intention of the rule makers to try and clarify the situation for those who are linguists.  Some folks are just very hard to please and enjoy gnats with neatly trimmed eyelashes. 

[Bob M.]

If you're not looking for trouble with this inoccuous change, you won't find anything different than what the understanding and interpretation has been.  However, if you are compelled to skin this down to the gnat's eyelash and gramatical correctness level, you'll be able to find all the trouble you're looking for.

It's too bad they didn't use a better word than "carried".

REPLY: Actually, this interpretation about carrying the airborne receiver forward and OOB is quite a bit different than last year's interp. Last year, it was an incomplete pass. This year, according to 7.5.4 sit H(c), the play results in a completed pass and advancement.