Remember, no PSK on IP fouls by R.

[Ralph Damren]

Just a reminder that our new illegal participation foul for playing without a helmet would not qualify for PSK enforcement if it occured by R during the kick. Just when ya' thunk ya' know all ya' need to know, ya' find out ya' ain't. !!!

[bbeagle]

Team A kicks 4th and 10 from 50 yard line. B88's helmet comes off as he runs towards the ball, and B88 catches the ball at the B20 without a helmet. B88 runs to the B30 where he is tackled by A22.

1) Do we kill the play at the B30? (Did a runner lose his helmet or was it already lost?)
2) Is the A22 tackle illegal (unsportsmanlike conduct)?
3) If B88 called for a fair catch then caught it, can a free kick be made?

[HLinNC]

1) Since the helmet was lost prior to the immediate acton of making the catch; although for the life of me I'm not sure how a helmet magically comes off unless it was not properly buckled, therefore creating another foul of Failing to Properly Wear Required Equipment During the Down, my guess- Illegal Participation by B88, ball would be dead as soon as he possessed it at the B20 yl. 

2) Personal foul on A22, USC doesn't involve contact.  In this instance it would be DBPF since the ball should have been dead at the B20 when B88 possessed the ball without his helmet.  Fouls would not offset as we have live ball and dead ball fouls.
9-6-4g is a basic spot foul, foul by R beyond the basic spot.  Loose ball play, previous spot enforcement.  15 yard penalty on B advances A beyond the line to gain, 1st down to A, then back them up 15 for the DBPF on A22 so A is  back 1st and 10 from the 50.

3) No, previous spot enforcement for B88's illegal participation gives the ball back to A. 

My head hurts and I've no idea how right or wrong I am.

[maven]

I agree with HLinNC. I would kill it immediately when B88 gains possession, and I'd bet any state interpreter would support that call on safety grounds.

Killing it immediately has a chance to prevent A22's foul. But if not, I agree with HLinNC's enforcement. A 1/10 @ 50.

He forgot to say: clock on the snap. 3-4-3c

[Ralph Damren]

I agree with Maven who agrees with HLinNC. The live ball foul creating a new series followed by a dead ball foul bringing it back to the previous spot may need a little explanation to the gathered, confused masses. My suggestion : (1) Drop a bean bag  @ LOS; (2) Have umpire  march off 15; (3) Signal 1st down K; (4) Have U bring ball back to original LOS; (5) Signal DBPF followed by 1st down & set the stakes; (6) Be ready to reward your umpire for "yards traveled" .

[HLinNC]

Be ready to reward your umpire for "yards traveled"  .

Be further ready as you flag B's head coach for USC after your "coach-referee conference" ends well past 11:00 pm and everybody needs a  and a

[Rulesman]

You beat me to it NC!

Good lookin' burger and fries too! All you need now is a big kosher pickle and a cold draft beer.

[HLinNC]

and a cold draft beer.

Not on educational property!  <finger wag thingy>

[bama_stripes]

Good lookin' burger and fries too! All you need now is a big kosher pickle and a cold draft beer.

Paradise!  Which way do I steer?

[maven]

Best. Hijack. Ever.

[VALJ]

I hadn't even thought about this not being a PSK foul.  This just gets more and more fun...

[FBUmp]

My guess is this rule might get changed since this is an IP that doesn't occur at the snap.

[VALJ]

My guess is this rule might get changed since this is an IP that doesn't occur at the snap.

I understand your logic, since the guy whose helmet fell off was legally participating to start the play.  But:

SITUATION: After said the punt is away, B44 realizes that he should have been on the field, runs in and blocks A81.  PSK?

[zhntr]

Situation:
Team A kicks 4th and 10 from 50 yard line. B88's helmet comes off at the B10 as he runs towards the ball, B88 MUFFS the ball at the B20 without a helmet. A20 contacts B88 at the B20 to get to the ball, B88 and A20 dive for the ball, and a) B88 recovers at the B25; b) A20 recovers at the B25.

[JKinGA29]

Situation:
Team A kicks 4th and 10 from 50 yard line. B88's helmet comes off at the B10 as he runs towards the ball, B88 MUFFS the ball at the B20 without a helmet. A20 contacts B88 at the B20 to get to the ball, B88 and A20 dive for the ball, and a) B88 recovers at the B25; b) A20 recovers at the B25.

B88 has illegally participated and A20 has committed a personal foul.  Since IP is not PSK, this is a double foul per 10-2-1b.  Replay the down.

Of course here in Georgia we are being told that the ball is dead as soon as it is touched by a helmetless player (state interpretation) so that makes it even more fun...but I won't try to confuse all of you with that ruling.

[Ralph Damren]

Be further ready as you flag B's head coach for USC after your "coach-referee conference" ends well past 11:00 pm and everybody needs a  and a

HLinNC - Being south of the Mason-Dixon I figured it would be 'burgers & grits ! I've had a couple of B or R live ball/dead ball followed by A or K dead ball fouls where a 1st down is created and have found a procedure that works for me is :  Don't wait for the defensive coach to burn a timeout - when a complicated situation like this occurs, go to his sidelines and say ," Coach, because you fouled first we measured your penalty off and it gave them a 1st down. They keep that 1st down even though their penalty brings the ball right back to where we started and ,BY RULE, we then set the stakes. ". Better to have them  mad at the rule then to be mad at you.

[Ralph Damren]

Remember,too, that the PSK window ends when the kick ends.Consider this : (1) K punts from 50, (2) R1 fields kick @ R-20, (3) R2's helmet comes off @ R-30, (4) R2 then continues to play & throws block @ R-35; (5a) R1 returns to r-25; (5b) R1 returns to R-40. You make the call.....

[maven]

B88 has illegally participated and A20 has committed a personal foul.  Since IP is not PSK, this is a double foul per 10-2-1b.  Replay the down.

10-2-1b does not apply when one foul is live-ball and the other is dead-ball, since the rule explicitly refers to fouls committed during "the same live-ball period."

[JKinGA29]

Right but the personal foul is live ball as well, no?

[maven]

Right but the personal foul is live ball as well, no?

Not as we're reading the play. See HLinNC's reply (post #3 above):
"2) Personal foul on A22, USC doesn't involve contact.  In this instance it would be DBPF since the ball should have been dead at the B20 when B88 possessed the ball without his helmet.  Fouls would not offset as we have live ball and dead ball fouls."

[JKinGA29]

Ahhh...we're talking about two different plays.  I was responding to the "alternate" situation posted right above mine where the player muffed instead of caught the kick.

[maven]

Ahhh...we're talking about two different plays.  I was responding to the "alternate" situation posted right above mine where the player muffed instead of caught the kick.

I beg your pardon. I'll try to pay closer attention.

[Atlanta Blue]

Of course here in Georgia we are being told that the ball is dead as soon as it is touched by a helmetless player (state interpretation)

Now there's the problem, as I was told it is dead as soon as it is POSSESSED (not touched) by a helmetless player.

[JKinGA29]

Now there's the problem, as I was told it is dead as soon as it is POSSESSED (not touched) by a helmetless player.

That's what we thought too when reading the rule book...the state camps and our officiating exam said differently.  But it wasn't mentioned at all in the online rules clinic.  Still hoping to get clarification before the season starts in 3 days.

[HLinNC]

Not sure how an interpretation of touching by a helmetless player can make the ball dead.  It would only apply to the runner and he wouldn't be the runner until he possessed it.  Its just a loose ball at that point with K being denied the ability to gain possession under that ruling, absent a foul by them of course.

ie- 1-10 a at the A40 yardline.  WR A88 leaps for a pass when his helmet comes completely off.  The ball grazes his fingertips and is intercepted by B27.

Georgia ruling: B has intercepted a dead ball(?)  Ball will be put in play for A, 2-10 at the A 40 yardline.  B's coach is ejected after two unsportsmanlike fouls.