Author Topic: Ineligible Receivers (Read 25928 times)

SCHSref · « **on:** August 28, 2013, 11:44:06 AM »

Rookie LJ here. I will be officiating sub-varsity games, so I will be using 4 man mechanics. Yee-haw

Anyway, one of my responsibilities is to tell if the TE is covered up on my side. I understand that if any receiver, on my side of the snapper, is on the line, then if the TE has his hand on the ground, he is covered up.

Now, here is my question. From my viewpoint on the sideline going toward the snapper I see the following:

A88 (on the line), A81 (on the line), A49-TE (on the line standing up but split out from the tackle. If there is a pass that crosses the LOS AND A49 is beyond that line running a route, do I flag it?

Also, if there is no TE and I just have A88 (on the line) and A81 (on the line), then no one is covered up, correct?

Thanks

TampaSteve · « **Reply #1 on:** August 28, 2013, 11:49:47 AM »

TE with hand on the ground: is not a criteria for being on the LOS.
TE breaking the plane of the snapper's waist with any body part makes him on the LOS.

First ques:
A81 is covered and A49 may be covered if he met the criteria set forth just above.

Second:
A81 is covered.

TE aint got nothing to do with nothing.
"the last guy on the LOS is the only guy eligible" (period. well, obviously, if he has an eligible number too)
So if the center is the last guy on LOS, he is eligible IF he has an eligible number.
Or, if a WR is the last guy on LOS, he is eligible. - no other guy on your side of LOS that is on the LOS is eligible.

SCHSref · « **Reply #2 on:** August 28, 2013, 11:56:59 AM »

Quote from: TampaSteve on August 28, 2013, 11:49:47 AM

TE with hand on the ground: is not a criteria for being on the LOS.
TE breaking the plane of the snapper's waist with any body part makes him on the LOS.

First ques:
A81 is covered and A49 may be covered if he met the criteria set forth just above.

Second:
A81 is covered.

TE aint got nothing to do with nothing.
"the last guy on the LOS is the only guy eligible" (period. well, obviously, if he has an eligible number too)
So if the center is the last guy, he is eligible IF he has an eligible number.
Or, if a WR is the last guy, he is eligible. - no other guy on your side of LOS that is on the LOS is eligible.

Sorry, I should have been more clear about the TE in the first scenario. A49 was breaking the plane.

SCHSref · « **Reply #3 on:** August 28, 2013, 11:58:50 AM »

Quote from: TampaSteve on August 28, 2013, 11:49:47 AM

TE with hand on the ground: is not a criteria for being on the LOS.
TE breaking the plane of the snapper's waist with any body part makes him on the LOS.

First ques:
A81 is covered and A49 may be covered if he met the criteria set forth just above.

Second:
A81 is covered.

TE aint got nothing to do with nothing.
"the last guy on the LOS is the only guy eligible" (period. well, obviously, if he has an eligible number too)
So if the center is the last guy, he is eligible IF he has an eligible number.
Or, if a WR is the last guy, he is eligible. - no other guy on your side of LOS that is on the LOS is eligible.

Let me get this clear...you have a wide out and a slot on one side and if the wideout is ON the line, then the slot is ineligible?

TampaSteve · « **Reply #4 on:** August 28, 2013, 12:00:10 PM »

Quote from: SCHSref on August 28, 2013, 11:56:59 AM

Sorry, I should have been more clear about the TE in the first scenario. A49 was breaking the plane.

A49 is covered.

TampaSteve · « **Reply #5 on:** August 28, 2013, 12:00:47 PM »

Quote from: SCHSref on August 28, 2013, 11:58:50 AM

Let me get this clear...you have a wide out and a slot on one side and if the wideout is ON the line, then the slot is ineligible?

Slot is fine, TE is covered.

maven · « **Reply #6 on:** August 28, 2013, 12:03:02 PM »

First, let's get clear about the rule. For a player to be eligible, he must be eligible both by number and position. You didn't ask about number so let's ignore that.

To be eligible by position he must be either in the backfield or on the end of the line. Four players may legally be in the backfield (because at least 7 must be on the line), and the line has 2 ends, and so 4 + 2 = 6: we will have a maximum of 6 eligible players for each down.

Now, to your specific question: if a TE is on the LOS, then he can be eligible only if he is on the end. If the WR's on his side are off the LOS, then the TE is on the end and he is eligible. If a WR is on the LOS, then the TE is not on the end of the line (the WR is), so the TE is ineligible. Note that the position of his hand is utterly irrelevant to whether he is on the end of the line.

To your other question: if you have BOTH A88 and A81 on the line, only A88 (on the end) is eligible. If either A81 or the TE go downfield (beyond the expanded NZ) and there is a pass beyond the NZ, then you have ineligible downfield and should flag it.

TampaSteve · « **Reply #7 on:** August 28, 2013, 12:07:09 PM »

Ditto Maven.
Make it easy on yourself.
Take positions like TE, slot, WR out of your head for a bit.

As a wing, from the center to you, "the last guy on the LOS is the only LOS guy eligible" period. (well, obviously, if he has an eligible number too)

SCHSref · « **Reply #8 on:** August 28, 2013, 12:52:58 PM »

Thanks MAven and TS. Appreciate it.

jg-me · « **Reply #9 on:** August 28, 2013, 01:48:44 PM »

I know this advice is unsolicited but may serve you well. When it comes to whether or not WR's and slots are on or off the line of scrimmage, don't split hairs. Make it not a foul if at all possible. In your original example if the WR, slot and TE are all clearly on the line with no stagger at all they have left you no choice but to make the inside linemen ineligible. If there is a bit if stagger, even if they all still break the snapper's waistline, make the wide guys off (again, in your original premise) so there is no foul. Now if making them off places too few on the line of scrimmage, they have left you no choice but to consider one of the wide guys on so there at least will be no foul for illegal formation.
Guess all I'm saying is, don't be overly technical when it comes to wideouts being on or off the line.

TampaSteve · « **Reply #10 on:** August 28, 2013, 02:00:47 PM »

Quote from: jg-me on August 28, 2013, 01:48:44 PM

I know this advice is unsolicited but may serve you well. When it comes to whether or not WR's and slots are on or off the line of scrimmage, don't split hairs. Make it not a foul if at all possible. In your original example if the WR, slot and TE are all clearly on the line with no stagger at all they have left you no choice but to make the inside linemen ineligible. If there is a bit if stagger, even if they all still break the snapper's waistline, make the wide guys off (again, in your original premise) so there is no foul. Now if making them off places too few on the line of scrimmage, they have left you no choice but to consider one of the wide guys on so there at least will be no foul for illegal formation.
Guess all I'm saying is, don't be overly technical when it comes to wideouts being on or off the line.

10-4 to that.

Rulesman · « **Reply #11 on:** August 28, 2013, 02:11:27 PM »

Another point to consider in not making this overly-technical. Using jg-me's example, if all 3 are covered head-up by a defender, I'd be even more apt not to split hairs with "is he on... is he off." The defense is covering them because they think they're legal receivers. Advantage gained by a blade or grass or two? I doubt it.

SCHSref · « **Reply #12 on:** August 28, 2013, 02:38:33 PM »

Thanks for all the time and help. Yes...the numbering wasn't a question for me, but I do appreciate the reminder.

VALJ · « **Reply #13 on:** August 29, 2013, 08:59:12 AM »

Quote from: jg-me on August 28, 2013, 01:48:44 PM

I know this advice is unsolicited but may serve you well. When it comes to whether or not WR's and slots are on or off the line of scrimmage, don't split hairs. Make it not a foul if at all possible. In your original example if the WR, slot and TE are all clearly on the line with no stagger at all they have left you no choice but to make the inside linemen ineligible. If there is a bit if stagger, even if they all still break the snapper's waistline, make the wide guys off (again, in your original premise) so there is no foul. Now if making them off places too few on the line of scrimmage, they have left you no choice but to consider one of the wide guys on so there at least will be no foul for illegal formation.
Guess all I'm saying is, don't be overly technical when it comes to wideouts being on or off the line.

Roger that. If there's a bit of stagger, I've also been known to tell them before the snap "both of you are on the line". That way, I'm not coaching them to tell - for all I know, it's going to be a run play - but I've done some preventive officiating. Especially helpful if I'm on A's sideline.

maven · « **Reply #14 on:** August 29, 2013, 09:23:12 AM »

Quote from: VALJ on August 29, 2013, 08:59:12 AM

Roger that. If there's a bit of stagger, I've also been known to tell them before the snap "both of you are on the line". That way, I'm not coaching them to tell - for all I know, it's going to be a run play - but I've done some preventive officiating. Especially helpful if I'm on A's sideline.

I agree that this is not coaching. However, if it's a pass downfield and they all go out, you're committed to at least IED, if not illegal touching (and LOD).

If you ask, "On or off?" you keep the option of flagging IF in borderline cases. In obvious cases or where A gets a clear advantage (pulling safeties up to cover ineligibles), you'll have to get IED/IT.

Rulesman · « **Reply #15 on:** August 29, 2013, 12:13:05 PM »

Quote from: maven on August 29, 2013, 09:23:12 AM

If you ask, "On or off?" you keep the option of flagging IF in borderline cases. In obvious cases or where A gets a clear advantage (pulling safeties up to cover ineligibles), you'll have to get IED/IT.

Better yet, by TELLING the widest receiver "on" or "off" (vs. asking) puts the burden right back where it belongs.... on them. Asking the question merely opens the door to an excuse should you have to flag a covered-up receiver.

HLinNC · « **Reply #16 on:** August 29, 2013, 02:57:30 PM »

Quote

Better yet, by TELLING the widest receiver "on" or "off" (vs. asking) puts the burden right back where it belongs.... on them.

Too many of our old guys are of the mindset- "Pat your leg, tell 'em your foots the line. If they can't line up its on them". Why set kids up for failure? I do the leg patting, I'll tell them "my foot is the line". But I 'll also tell them "I have you ON or I have you OFF, particularly if they are pointing at me looking for and answer. If there is a slot and a WR and they're both looking I'll tell them both "You're on, you're off" and point back to them.

I feel that is as much preventive officiating that I can do. Flagging ineligibles or illegal formation just because I can be a grumpy IDIOT isn't my bag, old guys be hanged.

VALJ · « **Reply #17 on:** August 29, 2013, 03:48:13 PM »

Quote from: maven on August 29, 2013, 09:23:12 AM

I agree that this is not coaching. However, if it's a pass downfield and they all go out, you're committed to at least IED, if not illegal touching (and LOD).

If you ask, "On or off?" you keep the option of flagging IF in borderline cases. In obvious cases or where A gets a clear advantage (pulling safeties up to cover ineligibles), you'll have to get IED/IT.

True - and if there's a stagger, I'll address it between plays. (I didn't phrase my earlier answer well - that's what I get for trying to do it while I'm on hold.)

If they're both on the line with no stagger, and neither responds to "you're both on", I'll tell them "88 and 84, you're both on the line" to reinforce it. If they don't respond to that, hey, I've tried.

And if a player asks, I'll always tell them "you're on the line" or "you're a back" - no chance of confusing words that way. I may point directly to the player who's asking, but I'll never point in a direction, so it doesn't look like I talked a kid into a motion penalty or an IS.

Patrick E. · « **Reply #18 on:** August 29, 2013, 04:40:15 PM »

Quote from: TampaSteve on August 28, 2013, 11:49:47 AM

TE with hand on the ground: is not a criteria for being on the LOS.

Perhaps this is for another thread.

A TE with his hand on the ground who is covered up (not on the end) has restrictions for shifting, correct?

sir55 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 29, 2013, 05:39:52 PM »

He is just another lineman, same restrictions.

jwkde · « **Reply #20 on:** August 29, 2013, 09:52:59 PM »

doesn't the wide out know if you have 'punched back' that you consider him off the line or vice-versa??

Rulesman · « **Reply #21 on:** August 29, 2013, 09:59:16 PM »

Quote from: jwkde on August 29, 2013, 09:52:59 PM

doesn't the wide out know if you have 'punched back' that you consider him off the line or vice-versa??

Right or wrong, there are locales that no longer use that mechanic.

jwkde · « **Reply #22 on:** August 30, 2013, 07:26:02 AM »

oh ok didn't realize that

Quote from: Rulesman on August 29, 2013, 09:59:16 PM

Right or wrong, there are locales that no longer use that mechanic.

BuckTrump · « **Reply #23 on:** August 30, 2013, 09:21:33 AM »

KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid!

The only men on the field that can legally catch a pass are those men that are:

1) On the end of the LOS at the start of the play or in the backfield at the start of the play

2) Have a number on their body that is 1-49 or 80-99.

It does not have to any harder than that!

Forget about this "Hand on the ground" and TE vs Tackle position. That type of talk with just mess you up! It should not matter if their is only one man on your side of the center........if he has a legit number and is the last guy on your side of the line of scrimmage than he can catch a pass as far as I am concerned!

I would suggest focusing on the last man on the line of scrimmage on your side......say his number to yourself each play. Then count the number of men on the line of scrimmage on your side. If you have three then the Offensive team is probably lined up as they shoudl be and you have little to worry about if a pass is thrown. If you have four, there is still a good chance that the Offensive team is lined up correctly but you may want to take note of the second man in from you on the line of scrimmage. If he has a legit number then bells should be going off in your head. Pay attention to him, say his number to yourself also.

You may see some of this in a sub-varsity game where the boys are still learning. It is a good habit to ingrain into your pre-snap routine.

As an early post stated however, do not split hairs out there. You are not looking to throw flags, just to keep the game fair...........if a slot man is "maybe" covered but a Defensive man is uptight on him ready to cover him then you have nothing.

These things will come in time......right now, just focus on the number of players on your side of the ball and the legal receivers by saying their numbers to yourself! This should help you work through 99% of the plays you will see.

By the way, a man being on the line of scrimmage does not take away his ability to shift as stated in an earlier post.

Best of luck to you!

FLAHL · « **Reply #24 on:** August 30, 2013, 12:14:33 PM »

I agree with HLinNC. I tell them whether they are on or off, and talk to them between plays if they are in no-man's land. I learned that I can't ask them if they're on or off, because I can't tell whether a 17-old with a mouthpiece in his mouth is saying "on" or "off." Also, I don't give a thumbs up signal or say "you're good" because (although I can guess) I don't know where they are supposed to be.

Author Topic: Ineligible Receivers (Read 25928 times)

maven

maven

BuckTrump