Author Topic: .5 Yd Line, Touchback or TD?  (Read 12032 times)

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Offline mrios73

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.5 Yd Line, Touchback or TD?
« on: September 13, 2013, 12:32:37 AM »
Is this ball at the .5 yd line, a touchback or a touchdown?

Ruled at .5 yd line.

Ball ended up in end zone where no one attempted to pick it up and was ruled dead in the end zone.

I believe this was a touchdown by rule.  7-2-5.

Thoughts?

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CenTexTM

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Re: .5 Yd Line, Touchback or TD?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2013, 02:13:06 AM »
I don't think so.  I think this was actually governed by the inadvertent whistle rules, so we had a forward fumble with an IW (the F signaling TD) that killed the play while the ball was loose.  There was no way Tech was going to replay the down, so they got the ball at the spot of the fumble.

Offline Kalle

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Re: .5 Yd Line, Touchback or TD?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2013, 04:13:26 AM »
If you rule that the possession was lost after the ball crossed the goal line, touchdown.

If you rule that the possession was lost before the ball crossed the goal line and the ball came at rest in the end zone with no player attempting to pick it up, touchdown.

If you rule that the possession was lost before the ball crossed the goal line and the FJ signalled TD, then IW rules apply.

Offline mrios73

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Re: .5 Yd Line, Touchback or TD?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2013, 06:24:53 AM »
So the key on this play would have been the signal for TD which essentially ended TCU's chance at recovering the loose ball in the end zone.

Makes sense to me.

Thanks!

Tommyjohn44

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Re: .5 Yd Line, Touchback or TD?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2013, 10:03:23 AM »
Assuming that we didn't have an IW...it looks like this scenario is a combination of two AR's and using the later AR ruling.

Second and four at the B-30. Ball carrier A33 breaks free and races toward the Team
B goal line. He drops the ball just inside the one-yard line and, thinking he has
scored a touchdown, circles through the end zone and toward his team area. There is no touchdown signal by any official. The fumbled ball hits the ground just outside or
just inside the goal line, rolls along the ground in the end zone, and is declared dead
there when it comes to rest and no player attempts to recover it.
RULING: Touchdown. The ball belongs to the team last in possession at the dead-ball
spot. By definition an awarded fumble in the opponent’s end zone is a touchdown.
(7-2-5, 8-2-1-c)
Second and four at the B-30. Ball carrier A33 breaks free and outdistances the
defenders as he races toward the Team B goal line. He drops the ball near the goal
line as he and the loose ball continue into the end zone. The Back Judge on the goal
line signals a touchdown. In the immediate continuing action players on both teams
try to recover the ball. The ball is clearly recovered in the end zone.

RULING With Instant Replay: If Instant Replay is being used at the game, the play is
reviewable because of the clear recovery in the immediate continuing action. (If there
is no such clear recovery the play may not be reviewed.) The score counts if the
Instant Replay Official confirms the ruling on the field or lets it stand. If he
determines that A33 fumbled before crossing the goal line and if he can determine
indisputably which team recovers the fumble, then the result of the review is a
touchdown or a touchback, depending on which team recovers. If the Instant Replay
Official determines that A33 fumbled the ball before crossing the goal line but is not
able to determine indisputably which team recovers, there is no touchdown or
touchback, and the dead-ball ruling on the field takes effect. Thus the ball belongs to
Team A at the spot of the fumble. (12-3-1, 12-3-3-d)


RULING Without Instant Replay: In a game in which Instant Replay is not used, if the
crew determines that the Back Judge erred in ruling a premature touchdown, then
inadvertent whistle rules apply. The ball is returned to Team A at the spot of the
fumble. (4-1-2-b-2)


The problem with AR1 is that FJ signals touchdown.
The problem with AR2 is that it speaks to both teams trying to recover the ball in the endzone. 

However, the key wording for me is "If the Instant Replay
Official determines that A33 fumbled the ball before crossing the goal line but is not
able to determine indisputably which team recovers."

It's probably not using the intent of those words, but replay could not determine which team recovered the ball because it was recovered by the officials instead. 

My take away in this scenario (ball fumbled at 1/2, ball comes to rest in endzone, neither team makes a play on the ball):
- If an official signals TOUCHDOWN then replay should return the ball to the spot of the fumble.
- If an official does NOT signal touchdown then replay should rule that the play is a touchdown as the spot at which the ball comes to rest (in the EZ) prevails and team A was last in possession of the ball.

Offline Magician

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Re: .5 Yd Line, Touchback or TD?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2013, 10:09:10 AM »
My take away in this scenario (ball fumbled at 1/2, ball comes to rest in endzone, neither team makes a play on the ball):
- If an official signals TOUCHDOWN then replay should return the ball to the spot of the fumble.
- If an official does NOT signal touchdown then replay should rule that the play is a touchdown as the spot at which the ball comes to rest (in the EZ) prevails and team A was last in possession of the ball.
I agree.  The R announced the ball came to rest with no one in possession and that's why it came back to the spot of the fumble.  If that was what was ruled it should have been a TD.  I think they got it right on IR but the reason was because the F signaled TD.

Offline dvasques

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Re: .5 Yd Line, Touchback or TD?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2013, 01:28:50 PM »
Assuming that we didn't have an IW...it looks like this scenario is a combination of two AR's and using the later AR ruling.

Second and four at the B-30. Ball carrier A33 breaks free and races toward the Team
B goal line. He drops the ball just inside the one-yard line and, thinking he has
scored a touchdown, circles through the end zone and toward his team area. There is no touchdown signal by any official. The fumbled ball hits the ground just outside or
just inside the goal line, rolls along the ground in the end zone, and is declared dead
there when it comes to rest and no player attempts to recover it.
RULING: Touchdown. The ball belongs to the team last in possession at the dead-ball
spot. By definition an awarded fumble in the opponent’s end zone is a touchdown.
(7-2-5, 8-2-1-c)
Second and four at the B-30. Ball carrier A33 breaks free and outdistances the
defenders as he races toward the Team B goal line. He drops the ball near the goal
line as he and the loose ball continue into the end zone. The Back Judge on the goal
line signals a touchdown. In the immediate continuing action players on both teams
try to recover the ball. The ball is clearly recovered in the end zone.

RULING With Instant Replay: If Instant Replay is being used at the game, the play is
reviewable because of the clear recovery in the immediate continuing action. (If there
is no such clear recovery the play may not be reviewed.) The score counts if the
Instant Replay Official confirms the ruling on the field or lets it stand. If he
determines that A33 fumbled before crossing the goal line and if he can determine
indisputably which team recovers the fumble, then the result of the review is a
touchdown or a touchback, depending on which team recovers. If the Instant Replay
Official determines that A33 fumbled the ball before crossing the goal line but is not
able to determine indisputably which team recovers, there is no touchdown or
touchback, and the dead-ball ruling on the field takes effect. Thus the ball belongs to
Team A at the spot of the fumble. (12-3-1, 12-3-3-d)


RULING Without Instant Replay: In a game in which Instant Replay is not used, if the
crew determines that the Back Judge erred in ruling a premature touchdown, then
inadvertent whistle rules apply. The ball is returned to Team A at the spot of the
fumble. (4-1-2-b-2)


which ARs are these?

Tommyjohn44

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Re: .5 Yd Line, Touchback or TD?
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2013, 11:20:48 AM »
Take a look at AR 8-2-1-X for the first ruling.  The second one came to me in a discussion with another official via email and I c&p'd it to here.  I cant find it in my rulebook or IR casebook.  I'm going to email him to see if he was possibly using an out of date book.

Offline bossman72

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Re: .5 Yd Line, Touchback or TD?
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2013, 07:10:11 PM »
Take a look at AR 8-2-1-X for the first ruling.  The second one came to me in a discussion with another official via email and I c&p'd it to here.  I cant find it in my rulebook or IR casebook.  I'm going to email him to see if he was possibly using an out of date book.

See IR casebook #125

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: .5 Yd Line, Touchback or TD?
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2013, 10:50:30 AM »
This one is on Rom's site in the Week 3 videos. Rom, as he always does, has an excellent analysis of the play and related rules, including reference to the IR casebook.  He always covers all of the details and leaves us with a better understanding of the rules with his comments.

http://www.romgilbert.us/2013vidclip3.htm
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Offline TXMike

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Re: .5 Yd Line, Touchback or TD?
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2013, 06:02:02 PM »
Made today's CFO Video Review.  RR says it was correctly ruled IW and brought back to spot of fumble.