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Offline Joe Stack

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Illegal Sub enforcement
« on: September 14, 2013, 06:41:13 PM »
A&M Bama game. 4th and 6, A&M (Team A) punts. Bama (Team B) runs player 12 on the field right at the snap and he stays on. Deep flank flags it -- play continues as punt, which Bama downs or gets tackled around their own 10. They call illegal sub and enforce from the Bama 10 (succ. spot), first and 10.

The live ball illegal sub foul clearly says previous spot for enforcement. One buddy I talked to said he thought it was PSK; he called our chapter rules guy who said they got it right (don't know if he thought PSK as well). If that's true, what am I missing? If they went with dead ball illegal sub, the play should have never happened, so the succeeding spot would have been where 4th and 6 was. Plus, I thought PSK was only if there was no specified enforcement (i.e. basic spot).
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Illegal Sub enforcement
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2013, 08:14:22 PM »
Prev spot not basic spot  .   Could have gone unfair acts if they thought the 12 was deliberate
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Offline dvasques

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Re: Illegal Sub enforcement
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2013, 09:17:12 PM »
PSK is for fouls during the kick
If B ran 12 players at the snap, could never be PSK

How can 12 men be live ball foul? Thought it was changed to be dead ball always if seen at the snap
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Offline Joe Stack

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Re: Illegal Sub enforcement
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2013, 09:50:54 PM »
Quote
PSK is for fouls during the kick

No - for fouls before the kick ends. Not necessarily during kick. A scrimmage kick play starts on the snap.

Its dead ball if discovered pre-snap or immediately with the snap (imminent or just occurred). If detected during the down, its live ball.
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Offline dvasques

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Re: Illegal Sub enforcement
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2013, 09:55:59 PM »
Quote from: Joe Stack on September 14, 2013, 09:50:54 PM
No - for fouls before the kick ends. Not necessarily during kick. A scrimmage kick play starts on the snap.

Its dead ball if discovered pre-snap or immediately with the snap (imminent or just occurred). If detected during the down, its live ball.

That was last year. It was changed for this year

"b. Postscrimmage kick enforcement applies only to fouls by Team B during a scrimmage kick and only under the following conditions:"
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Offline JasonTX

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Re: Illegal Sub enforcement
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2013, 11:31:00 PM »
Quote from: Joe Stack on September 14, 2013, 09:50:54 PM
No - for fouls before the kick ends. Not necessarily during kick. A scrimmage kick play starts on the snap.

Its dead ball if discovered pre-snap or immediately with the snap (imminent or just occurred). If detected during the down, its live ball.

Joe, you missed the rule change.  The foul must be during the kick.  If a foul occurs before the kick it will not be PSK anymore like last year.
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Illegal Sub enforcement
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2013, 07:53:12 AM »
So back to the original rules question that this play raises.  What does the 2013 version of Rule 3 say should be done when we already have a team B 11 player count and we clearly see a 12th play enter the field of play virtually simultaneous with the snap?
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Offline Kalle

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Re: Illegal Sub enforcement
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2013, 07:58:49 AM »
Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on September 16, 2013, 07:53:12 AM
So back to the original rules question that this play raises.  What does the 2013 version of Rule 3 say should be done when we already have a team B 11 player count and we clearly see a 12th play enter the field of play virtually simultaneous with the snap?

If you are absolutely sure that it is the 12th player entering, stop the play even if snap has just occurred. If you are not absolutely sure, let the play run and re-count after the down is over.
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Offline JDM

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Re: Illegal Sub enforcement
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2013, 10:41:30 AM »
10-2-1-a
Basic spot enforcement is only when the enforcement spot is not specified in the statement of the penalty.
5-2-a thru d
ILS carries a previous or succeeding spot penalty statement.
 
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Illegal Sub enforcement
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2013, 12:59:08 PM »
Isn't the applicable rule and AR for 2013 directly on point for this play?

More Than Eleven Players on the Field

RULE 3-5-33-b. Team B is allowed to briefly retain more than 11 players on the field to anticipate the offensive formation, but it may not have more than 11 players in its formation if the snap is imminent. Whether the snap is imminent or has just occurred, the officials shall stop the action. (A.R. 3-5-3-V)

A.R. 3-5-3-V. Team A is in formation to kick a field goal and Team B has eleven players in its formation. Just before the ball is snapped a twelfth Team B player runs onto the field. The ball is snapped and the kicker completes his kick.
RULING: Live-ball foul. Five-yard penalty, previous spot, or Team A may accept the result of the play. Since Team B’s twelfth player had not been in the formation when the ball was snapped, officials should not shut down the play for a dead-ball foul. The intent of Rule 3-5-3-b is to give Team B an opportunity to adjust its defense, but Team B must not be allowed to gain an advantage by an extra player entering the field very close to the time the ball is snapped.
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Offline FLBJ

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Re: Illegal Sub enforcement
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2013, 08:16:04 PM »
Watching the replay tonight on ESPNU. I'm making a big assumption, but I think since they announced he entered during the play, they went with succeeding spot but I think it's previous spot regardless. Just a thought.
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Offline Kalle

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Re: Illegal Sub enforcement
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2013, 12:44:07 AM »
Quote from: FLBJ on September 16, 2013, 08:16:04 PM
Watching the replay tonight on ESPNU. I'm making a big assumption, but I think since they announced he entered during the play, they went with succeeding spot but I think it's previous spot regardless. Just a thought.

A live ball 3-5-2-a foul is a previous spot foul, yes.
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Illegal Sub enforcement
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2013, 06:57:59 AM »
Was on RG's Week 3 video list  http://www.romgilbert.us/2013vidclip3.htm
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Illegal Sub enforcement
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2013, 05:42:06 PM »
Made today's CFO Video Review also.  RR says it has to be previous spot enforcement, not PSK
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