Wisconsin/Arizona State ending

[maven]

If someone could find out what consequences have followed the "reprimand," I'd be interested.

[Diablo]

I'm just a fan trying to understand the rules.  I've read the thread and lots of non-ref postings on other boards, but am still confused and hope you will indulge my questions.

I'll do an easy one.

4.  What's the rule for a ref to stop the clock on his own?  Is this something any of the refs can do or is it just the head ref's call to make?

There is only one referee in the game.  He wears a white hat.  The other officials wear black hats.  In general any official can signal and stop the clock if a clock-stopping situation occurs in his area.

[TXMike]

I'm just a fan trying to understand the rules.  I've read the thread and lots of non-ref postings on other boards, but am still confused and hope you will indulge my questions.

1.  Is everyone in agreement that QB's knee either touched ground or at a minimum simulated taking a knee such that it was appropriate to call the play over and rule the ball dead?

  I'll take a stab..

Yes

[NVFOA_Ump]

I'll take #3:

3.  Why is delay of game not appropriate here?  I get ASU players could have legitimately thought this was a fumble and were just trying to recover the ball.  But, it took one ASU player about 8 seconds to get off the ball with official over him presumably telling him to get up (the other two ASU players were off the ball in a couple of seconds).  If the ref urgently ordered the player to get off the ball and he was that slow to do so with game on the line, why no delay of game?  And, if ref wasn't urgently telling player to get off ball with clock ticking down, isn't this a failure of the ref?

In my opinion as I have stated earlier, DOG would have been supportable here,  As you note, there was no reason for the ASU player to stay down on the ball as he did for a full 7-8 seconds unless it was an intentional act intended to eat up time.

[Morningrise]

Isn't it the other way around?  The 3-second rule applies only when the clock will start on the ready? (3-2-5-a).  But, agree, this rule wouldn't apply anyway as clock was running at the time.

Exactly right, my fault for dashing that off and not proofreading.

[Cowman52]

Let me think out loud,  had the ball be in a side zone, and the relay between officials back to the hash mark had been dropped, kicked or otherwise delayed, wouldn't the white hat stop the clock, get the ball set on the ground and then started the clock? The officials in that instance screwed up the deal,  they need to make it right. .  Same reasoning in the game in question,  stop clock, unpile, set ball, roll clock. Problem would have  never happened and, the confusion at the pile could have been a quick fix,  ball dead here, no fumble, a ball, clock rolls on my whistle. I don't see this as being that complicated

[golfingref]

As the game ends, the H or L, the one on the far side of the field, comes in waving his arms as if to kill the clock. I don't believe this is the normal mechanic for the end of the game. It seems as if he knew something was not quite right, however the video does not show any conference with the officials. Just something I thought was interesting.

[TXMike]

Let me think out loud,  had the ball be in a side zone, and the relay between officials back to the hash mark had been dropped, kicked or otherwise delayed, wouldn't the white hat stop the clock, get the ball set on the ground and then started the clock? The officials in that instance screwed up the deal,  they need to make it right. .  Same reasoning in the game in question,  stop clock, unpile, set ball, roll clock. Problem would have  never happened and, the confusion at the pile could have been a quick fix,  ball dead here, no fumble, a ball, clock rolls on my whistle. I don't see this as being that complicated

  Of course we all know that now.  The question none of us can likely answer though is if we would have had that presence of mind IN THAT MOMENT.  Hopefully this is one of the reason most folks are here...go through these things form the comfort of the easy chair and get a response ready so when our "Waterloo" happens, we respond accordingly.

[Magician]

Let me think out loud,  had the ball be in a side zone, and the relay between officials back to the hash mark had been dropped, kicked or otherwise delayed, wouldn't the white hat stop the clock, get the ball set on the ground and then started the clock? The officials in that instance screwed up the deal,  they need to make it right. .  Same reasoning in the game in question,  stop clock, unpile, set ball, roll clock. Problem would have  never happened and, the confusion at the pile could have been a quick fix,  ball dead here, no fumble, a ball, clock rolls on my whistle. I don't see this as being that complicated

The only time they would kill the clock is if the ball could not be ready for play by 20 seconds. The game clock would have expired before the 20 seconds.

[Cowman52]

Why?

[Cowman52]

Fingers faster than brain.
Worked a game, 4th down measurement, I pull the chain, 3inches short, white hat in a hurry and points the wrong direction, I don't notice until chains released, white hat too proud, and too arrogant to come back and get it right. Playoff game, 4th round, game within 3 points.

There was a chance to fix it right and we didn't. Getting it right is more important than looking good to the evaluators, and the crew did neither and took a hit from the conference on top of it. Hind sight is always 20/20 just slow down a little and foresight might be 20/30

[chymechowder]

  Of course we all know that now.  The question none of us can likely answer though is if we would have had that presence of mind IN THAT MOMENT. 

Respectfully disagree. We should be attuned to the game situation. A trails by 2 with 18 seconds left. 1/10 at B-13 right hash. When the QB takes a snap and moves to the center of the field and takes a knee, isn't it obvious that they're setting up the placement of the FG attempt?

 (Granted, the QB didn't do himself any favors the way he took the knee and left the ball there.)

He takes a knee at :16, and there's a whistle at :15.  No official dropped a bag for a fumble.

If B doesn't jump on the ball, what happens next? The umpire would set the ball around :10 or :09, and A would spike it and then bring the FG unit on. I don't think one needs hindsight to know that. I think it's a rather common procedure. But honestly, it looks like neither the R nor the U is aware that this is what A is trying to do.

But instead we've got B lying on top of a dead ball. Whether or not B thought it might be a fumble is, to me at least, immaterial. The officials knew it wasn't a fumble.

Put it this way: say B picked up the ball and started running with it. What would the R do? Would he let the clock run down? No, he'd stop the clock and say "That's not a fumble, you can't have it. Give me the ball. We're going to place it and wind on the ready."

So why do it any differently just because B was lying on top of the ball??

[TXMike]

You are assuming facts not in evidence.  We know for a fact that at least 1 official did not know it was not a fumble.  There is no evidence that the U immediately knew what happened either.  From his viewpoint it would have been hard to impossible to know to if the QB had been down before the ball was loose. 

The problem is now that we all "know" what happened and the aftermath, it is near impossible to rewind our brain recorders to a point where it does not have that info recorded.  If we could do that then we would see how many guys could have made the immediate quick response that was required. 

One thing this mess suggests to me is that now whenever we are in a time critical situation and something strange happens, maybe we ought to immediately stop the clock until we can sort it out.  That is going to give an advantage to one them though.

[NVFOA_Ump]

You are assuming facts not in evidence.  We know for a fact that at least 1 official did not know it was not a fumble.  There is no evidence that the U immediately knew what happened either.  From his viewpoint it would have been hard to impossible to know to if the QB had been down before the ball was loose. 

IMO the whole "it was a fumble" idea does nothing to justify allowing 10+ seconds to run off the clock.  If anyone thought for a moment that there was a fumble, then it was 100% clear that B had immediate and uncontested possession of the "loose" ball with still more than 10 seconds on the clock.  At that point there would be no reason not to follow the rules and immediately kill the clock for a change of possession.  IR could then have stepped in and confirmed that the QB had taken a knee and that there was not a fumble.

[tzebra]

Also this year if there is less than 3 seconds remaining in the period with clock running and the qb spikes the ball the period is over.

[maven]

Also this year if there is less than 3 seconds remaining in the period with clock running and the qb spikes the ball the period is over.

Not true, and already addressed in the thread:
http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=10335.msg99704#msg99704

[TxSkyBolt]

Also this year if there is less than 3 seconds remaining in the period with clock STOPPED and the qb spikes the ball the period is over.

Fixed it for you

[dvasques]

sorry guys, where does it say that if the QB simulates to kneel, the play should be blown dead?

[Legacy Zebra]

4-1-3o "o. When a ball carrier simulates placing his knee on the ground."

[psv]

Plus there are angles showing his knee on the ground, or as close to it as you can get.  The angle in the video is bad, but there were two whistles as well.  Someone with a whistle thought he was down too.

[younggun]

If someone could find out what consequences have followed the "reprimand," I'd be interested.

http://pac-12.com/article/2013/09/17/pac-12-football-officiating-coordinator-tony-corrente-elaborates-asu-wisconsin

[maven]

http://pac-12.com/article/2013/09/17/pac-12-football-officiating-coordinator-tony-corrente-elaborates-asu-wisconsin

Yeah, that's not it. I want to know what's going to happen to the crew, not how they were evaluated on a 5 point scale.

[Topspot]

Thanks for the responses to 1, 3, and 4.  Anyone care to take a shot at 2 and 5?

Also, can someone explain the new 3 second rule please?  I had thought that if the ball was spiked with less than 3 seconds in the half, then the half was over.  I gather now, that's NOT the rule if the clock was running when snapped.  Does this new rule apply only if the clock is stopped when the ball is snapped?  What in the world is the purpose of such a rule and when would it ever apply (i.e., why would anyone spike the ball if the clock is already stopped--the whole purpose of spiking the ball is to stop the clock)?

[Magician]

The three second rule applied if the clock was stopped for some reason (i.e. first down, penalty enforcement) and would start on the ready for play.  If that happens and there are at least 3 seconds left, they have the possibility of spiking it.  They aren't guaranteed getting another play though if there is a delay in snapping the ball.  If the clock is already running or the clock will not start until the snap the rule does not apply.

[maven]

The three second rule applied if the clock was stopped for some reason (i.e. first down, penalty enforcement) and would start on the ready for play.  If that happens and there are at least 3 seconds left, they have the possibility of spiking it.

Important to be clear about this: Magician has it correct, in that the rule prohibits a spike only if LESS THAN 3 seconds are on the clock. 3 seconds or more, and the rule doesn't apply.

Also, can someone explain the new 3 second rule please?  I had thought that if the ball was spiked with less than 3 seconds in the half, then the half was over. 

And, it applies at the end of any quarter, not just the end of a half.