Illegal Participation

[FLAHL]

During a play, A has 12 men on the field, all participating.  B's coaches notice this, and calmly and politely  bring it to the wing official's attention during the play.  After the play ends, the wing official counts 11 players going back to the huddle, and a 12th player going to the sidelines.  Is it proper to call the foul on A at that point?  Or is it too late?  9-6-4 doesn't specifically address this and I don't find anything in Redding's either.  Thanks.   

[FBUmp]

A time frame isn't specifically addressed in the rule book.

If I can recognize it and confirm by counting immediately after the play is over, I flag it.

[maven]

Given the circumstances (late recognition, prompted by opposing coach), I'd get the crew together to discuss. The R and U should have had the count, so the first question is how they missed 12. Next, I'd want to hear from the opposite side wing concerning late subs and participation.

You can still get this in this time frame, but I'd have to be damn sure it's really IP before assessing those 15 yards.

[FLAHL]

Thanks guys.  I appreciate the responses.  We did conference as a crew, and hit all of the points that Maven brought up.  Wing official was certain that he counted 12 after the play, so we marked off 15.  Although this didn't help us on Friday night - we all watched the game on HUDL over the weekend and sure enough, there were 12.  R and U bring extra cash to buy beer next Friday night, right?

[Ralph Damren]

With hurry up offenses, it can be a challenge to be sure that you have 12 when the ball is snapped. Don't try to count them during the action as the action is more important. When the play ends, yell : "BLUE FREEZE  " Your crewmates know this means count the blue players and will assist. Too many, toss hankie, foul occurred at snap = previous spot foul.

[VALJ]

We err on the other side of the coin in my association.  If there's doubt, we flag it and kill the play.  We'd rather wave off an IS flag than enforce an IP. 

Depending on your assigner, though, your mileage may vary related to that sentiment.

[Curious]

With hurry up offenses, it can be a challenge to be sure that you have 12 when the ball is snapped. Don't try to count them during the action as the action is more important. When the play ends, yell : "BLUE FREEZE  " Your crewmates know this means count the blue players and will assist. Too many, toss hankie, foul occurred at snap = previous spot foul.

+1

[Ralph Damren]

We err on the other side of the coin in my association.  If there's doubt, we flag it and kill the play.  We'd rather wave off an IS flag than enforce an IP. 

Depending on your assigner, though, your mileage may vary related to that sentiment.

I agree,VALJ, as it is an easy flag to eat. If you think there is 12, blow & throw for DBIS. I was referring to being  unsure  just as the ball is snapped. Don't shut that down as something good / bad / ugly may occur. Count 'em after the play's over.

[110]

As a side note, I have found the technique of clumping players into groups of four to be remarkably handy at counting. Of course, in Canadian games, I'm looking for (four)(four)(four), whereas for American, I'd be looking for (four)(four)(three).

[FBUmp]

As a side note, I have found the technique of clumping players into groups of four to be remarkably handy at counting. Of course, in Canadian games, I'm looking for (four)(four)(four), whereas for American, I'd be looking for (four)(four)(three).

Three, three, three, two.

[VALJ]

Three, three, three, two.

+1

[zoom]

This is my first year on a varsity crew and I have run into some disagreement with officials regarding rules 3-7-4, 5, and 6.  These are basically the 5 yard live ball illegal substitution penalty fouls.  I have yet to see this ever used in my association.  In fact, white hats seem to universally be of the opinion that these are bad rules and substitution fouls can only be dead ball, with IP being the foul if we let the snap go off.  Is this the general consensus nationwide?  I have had replaced players late getting off the field in subvarsity several times and in varsity once, but it was by the defense.  Killing the play affected the no huddle offense's momentum and giving 15 seems extreme.

- Mike in Connecticut

[bbeagle]

Killing the play affected the no huddle offense's momentum and giving 15 seems extreme.

If we notice 12 men before the play, it's a whistle, 5 yard illegal substitution.

If we notice 11 men on the field with 1 trying to run off, let the play go (he could possibly get off in time making everything legal). If the snap occurs when he still hasn't got off. Immediate flag. Let the play go. It's a 5 yard illegal substitution.

If we notice 12 men during the play, it's 15 yard illegal participation.

When it's no-huddle, don't kill the play. Everything is happening so quickly. If the 12th man stays, you've got 15 yards, if the 12th man goes off the field (without doing anything to deceive the opponent), it's 5 yards.

[zoom]

When it's no-huddle, don't kill the play. Everything is happening so quickly. If the 12th man stays, you've got 15 yards, if the 12th man goes off the field (without doing anything to deceive the opponent), it's 5 yards.

Thanks for the great summary.

In one of my games this year, as the LJ, I had mistakedly counted 12 when the defense only had 11 right as the snap was imminent 1st and 10 at the A15 yard line.  It was right after a punt return and the offense had the play ready and were lined up before the ready for play, so I got no signal from my BJ.  The defense thought they had 12 as well and a deep defensive back attempted to leave at the A30 yard line but didn't make it.  So I dropped my flag and the Qb took the snap and threw the ball almost directly at me, where a WR was lined up and the pass landed incomplete out of bounds.  I ran in to report the penalty and that I had a live ball illegal substitution.  Luckily the back judge had the correct count and we waved it off. 

However, afterwards I was told by the white hat, my mentor, and several others that it would have been IP.  This continues to bother me as I don't see how the guy running off on defense "participated", when clearly trying to leave, and not reentering during the down.  In addition, at the beginning of the season I was told at the state clinic in no uncertain terms that we should NEVER flag a live ball illegal substitution; it is always an IP, with a 15 yard penalty.  The only time we have a 5 yard penalty is if we kill the play.  I'm essentially a rookie official, but I don't think I will ever see the logic in this state's position. 

Mike in Connecticut

[TNofficial]

A replaced player who attempts to leave the field before the snap but fails and does not participate should get an illegal substitution penalty.  3-7-4  Live ball - 5 yard penalty.  It is illegal participation to "have 12 or more players participating at the snap or free kick." (emphasis added).  9-7-4(c).  Now of course a state can modify the rules as they see fit though a 15 yard penalty for failing to get off in time seems a little harsh.