Utah State vs San Jose State

[RTBackJudge]

Haven't heard anyone talk abour this game. Wrong team penalized for Holding on a scrimmage kick. After a subsequent play if run, the calling official informs the Referee that the penalty was administered against the incorrect team. The crew, after much discussion decide to disgard the previous play and go back and mark the penalty against the correct team and them resume the game. The rules of NCAA Football do not support the resolution. what do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qIj-9K6zbQ

[maven]

In addition, they ended up enforcing the penalty in a manner not supported by the rules. A holding foul by A during a kick is previous spot enforcement, and they enforced it from the end of the kick, as if it were a tack-on.

Discussed on Rom Gilbert's site:
http://www.romgilbert.us/2013vidclip5.htm

[SanDiegoStryker]

Is that right?

Penalties for all fouls by the kicking team other than kick catch interference (Rule 6-4) during a scrimmage kick play (except field-goal attempts) in which the ball crosses the neutral zone may be enforced either at the previous spot with the down repeated or at the spot where the subsequent dead ball belongs to Team B, at the option of Team B.

[maven]

Is that right?

No, you're right, and quoted 10-2-3. Still learning NCAA. I piled on in error.

[Kalle]

The right reaction of the referee when the wing comes in and lets him know that the crew goofed after the 1st down play was run would have been "Thank you very much. Next time please come in before the next snap. Let's get on with the 2nd and 9."

This again shows us how important it is for the calling official to know the enforcement of the penalty he called.

[dvasques]

Is that right?

Penalties for all fouls by the kicking team other than kick catch interference (Rule 6-4) during a scrimmage kick play (except field-goal attempts) in which the ball crosses the neutral zone may be enforced either at the previous spot with the down repeated or at the spot where the subsequent dead ball belongs to Team B, at the option of Team B.

what?

[Kalle]

what?

The penalty enforcement for team A rules during the kick was changed a few years ago to allow team B to tack on the penalty from the dead-ball spot (if the ball belongs to team B there) instead of having to re-kick. The re-kick is still an option.

[Magician]

The right reaction of the referee when the wing comes in and lets him know that the crew goofed after the 1st down play was run would have been "Thank you very much. Next time please come in before the next snap. Let's get on with the 2nd and 9."

This again shows us how important it is for the calling official to know the enforcement of the penalty he called.

And the L is the only one on the crew who had any idea it was wrong since everyone else thought he flagged the receiving team.  There was apparently a TV timeout so the L had plenty of time to realize he reported it incorrectly (or the R heard it incorrectly).  This crew was in trouble either way.  Two wrongs don't make a right, but part of me is OK with this correction.  I'd love to hear what others say.  This is the survey play on Rom Gilbert's site.

[Kalle]

I'd love to hear what others say.  This is the survey play on Rom Gilbert's site.

The rule book is very explicit in this: "No rule decision may be changed after the ball is next legally snapped, legally free-kicked or the second or fourth periods have ended."

[Magician]

The rule book is very explicit in this: "No rule decision may be changed after the ball is next legally snapped, legally free-kicked or the second or fourth periods have ended."

Agreed but sometimes doing the right thing isn't always doing things right.  My vote was to acknowledge the error and move on to 2nd and 9.

[dvasques]

The penalty enforcement for team A rules during the kick was changed a few years ago to allow team B to tack on the penalty from the dead-ball spot (if the ball belongs to team B there) instead of having to re-kick. The re-kick is still an option.

Sorry Kalle, where is that written. Can't find it

[Diablo]

The rule book is very explicit in this: "No rule decision may be changed after the ball is next legally snapped, legally free-kicked or the second or fourth periods have ended."

We are in the age of IR and "getting it right".  I think it's time to review that rule passage.

[Kalle]

Sorry Kalle, where is that written. Can't find it

Rule 10-2-4.

[Kalle]

We are in the age of IR and "getting it right".  I think it's time to review that rule passage.

How should the rule be modified? In this particular case, if you do a "do-over" and return to 1st and 10, you're effectively penalizing team B for a good defensive play. I might accept a 2nd and 9 at the 41 after the 20 yard penalty correction.

[Magician]

Sorry Kalle, where is that written. Can't find it

6-3-13
Penalties for all fouls by the kicking team other than kick catch interference (Rule 6-4) during a scrimmage kick play (except field-goal attempts) in which the ball crosses the neutral zone may be enforced either at the previous spot with the down repeated or at the spot where the subsequent dead ball belongs to Team B, at the option of Team B.

[dvasques]

Thanks Magician

[Diablo]

How should the rule be modified? In this particular case, if you do a "do-over" and return to 1st and 10, you're effectively penalizing team B for a good defensive play. I might accept a 2nd and 9 at the 41 after the 20 yard penalty correction.

What's wrong with "do overs".  We do that after inadvertent whistles - another crew screwup.

[Kalle]

What's wrong with "do overs".  We do that after inadvertent whistles - another crew screwup.

With IW's there are provisions to alleviate the damage done, if the team in possession so wants. If we start going back in the down sequence, how can you make sure that the decision is even close to equitable?

Assume that there was a fumble on the first down play. Would you still go back and do the down over after fixing the penalty enforcement? Or, assume that we run three plays, minor gain for team A, and THEN the L comes in. Would you still go back?

This is a freak occurrence, I really don't see any need to fix this by a rule change to allow going back. Take all the time you need before making the ball ready, yes, and get it right even if it takes you half an hour.

[Aussie-Zebra]

Same crew - chain crew have not been instructed and are not controlled - leads to big mix up on downs.

http://youtu.be/7nHMWNPNGUw

[Magician]

Wow!  In that case the chain crew was actually right.  I wonder if the H moved them.  The line to gain was the 27 and they ruled him out at the 28.  That's a first down.  You can see the box man move quickly and be at the LOS at the snap.  The game clock never started though so I wonder if the R ever wound it.  If not the ball technically was not ready for play and you have a delay of game for the snap.  This crew may be enjoying a week off.

[Rulesman]

I wonder how many weeks of vacation this crew earned in this game?

[TXMike]

We are in the age of IR and "getting it right".  I think it's time to review that rule passage.

  Holy slippery slope Batman!!!  Where would you say enough is enough? After 1 play, 2 plays, a series, ?

[Diablo]

  Holy slippery slope Batman!!!  Where would you say enough is enough? After 1 play, 2 plays, a series, ?

Yea, I know there are a few wrinkles to iron out.  But, I imagine a blue ribbon committee from Refstripes could be assembled to come up with a valid proposed rule change.  Couldn't be any worse than our current congress.
For openers,
1)  limit the correctible errors to penalty enforcement, 3-3-5-a-1 & 3-3-9-a infractions. incorrect administration of 8-4-2-b-1, 3-2-3, 4-1-2 & etc.
2) limit do overs to only 1 down.
3) others to be discovered 

[Kalle]

Yea, I know there are a few wrinkles to iron out.  But, I imagine a blue ribbon committee from Refstripes could be assembled to come up with a valid proposed rule change.  Couldn't be any worse than our current congress.

I still fail to see the real benefit of this. When was the last time this kind of situation happened?

For those of you who start the draft process, please include some kind of provision for the team in possession to be able to decline the process, similar to IW (say the 1st down play would have been a 30 yard gain - would you still have done a do-over?).

[TXMike]

I have the abbreviation for this new animal. Instead of IW we will call it IFU