Author Topic: Question about unfair tactics  (Read 11753 times)

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Offline Tobbe56

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Question about unfair tactics
« on: October 20, 2013, 11:26:01 AM »
First of all, I´m a long time reader but this is my first post. I want to extend my thanks to all of you that you´ve managed to create a good place to talk about and learn rules and their aplications.

As the topic mentions the question is about unfair tactics. I´ve seen this play during the season by a couple of teams running the pistol-offense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdP7WODow9c

According to the BAFRA-mechanics that we use in Sweden the following is stated in §3.9.9.d
Trick plays with actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing that the snap is not imminent - this includes pretending to have aproblem with the play that has been called...

This is obviously not the case in NCAA because the play in question wasn´t flagged. But how far from using unfair tactics is this by NCAA standards? Borderline? Not even close?
If you were to penalize this what rule would you refer to?
Is this that typically would be covered in the pregame meeting between coaches and officials?

RunRickyRun

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Re: Question about unfair tactics
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2013, 12:47:09 PM »
But how far from using unfair tactics is this by NCAA standards? Borderline? Not even close?
I'm sure you'll get responses from more experienced officials than I, but I would say not even close.  There is only one player giving the appearance that he's 'confused,' and he's between the hash marks. With 10 ready to play, the defense needs to be prepared for the snap.

If you were to penalize this what rule would you refer to?
Rule 9-2-2
Unfair Tactics
ARTICLE 2. a. No player shall conceal the ball in or beneath his clothing or
equipment or substitute any other article for the ball.

b. No simulated replacements or substitutions may be used to confuse
opponents. No tactic associated with substitutes or the substitution process
may be used to confuse opponents (Rule 3-5-2-e) (A.R. 9-2-2-I-V).

c. No equipment may be used to confuse opponents (Rule 1-4-2-d and -e).

PENALTY [a-c]—Live-ball foul. 15 yards from the previous spot [S27].
Automatic first down for fouls by Team B if not in conflict with
other rules. Flagrant offenders shall be disqualified [S47].


Is this that typically would be covered in the pregame meeting between coaches and officials?
Not in my experience, unless the coach mentions the play and asks for clarification.  Occasionally a coach will tell you about one of his plays/formations that has been flagged (he assumes incorrectly) by another crew.  It would then be appropriate to tell him that the play, as described, will/won't be flagged.  Otherwise, as an official I would not bring up the subject.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 12:48:53 PM by RunRickyRun »

StudyingFutureZebra

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Re: Question about unfair tactics
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2013, 12:50:59 PM »
When I coached football, we had a play similar to that, where the QB would be under center in the I formation and he'd bark out some signals, and if the defense didn't jump offsides, he'd rip off his chinstraps in anger, throw his hands down and walk away from the line of scrimmage. That was the cue for the center to snap the ball to the tailback who'd dive straight ahead. Nobody ever had a problem with it.

RunRickyRun

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Re: Question about unfair tactics
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2013, 12:58:11 PM »
When I coached football, we had a play similar to that, where the QB would be under center in the I formation and he'd bark out some signals, and if the defense didn't jump offsides, he'd rip off his chinstraps in anger, throw his hands down and walk away from the line of scrimmage. That was the cue for the center to snap the ball to the tailback who'd dive straight ahead. Nobody ever had a problem with it.
The involvement of the chin strap in your description would complicate the matter.  The play could be flagged (9-2-2-c) or it could be shut down due to a player not wearing equipment correctly.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Question about unfair tactics
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2013, 01:17:34 PM »
This is an illegal play. 15 yards from the previous spot. See bulletin play #2 in http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/rules/football/2009/2009playsituationsno%203-1109.pdf (although the bulletin is from 2009 the relevant rules have not changed since).

I still don't understand why the rule language has not changed to reflect the play situation ruling.

RunRickyRun

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Re: Question about unfair tactics
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2013, 01:22:53 PM »
Here are the 9-2-2 AR's which might help...

Unfair Tactics—ARTICLE 2
Approved Ruling 9-2-2
I. After the ball is ready for play, Team A goes into a formation with two
players split wide on both sides of the snapper and two other Team A
linemen adjacent to the snapper. No more than four players are legally
in the backfield. Team A sends in two substitutes, who take positions
on the line of scrimmage adjacent to the two split offensive linemen on
the opposite side of the field of play from their team bench. This leaves
Team A with nine players on the line of scrimmage and four backfield
players all legally in position. Immediately and before the snap, two
Team A linemen nearest their team’s bench leave the field of play and
are off at the snap. Seven players are on the line of scrimmage, five of
whom are Team A linemen numbered 50 to 79. RULING: Penalty—15
yards from the previous spot. This is a simulated replacement of a player
to confuse the opponents.

II. On fourth down at Team B’s 12-yard line, A1 enters the field of play
with a kicking shoe while his 11 teammates are in the huddle. A1 kneels
and measures the distance from the neutral zone to the kicking spot.
While his teammates are leaving the huddle, A1 leaves the field of play
with the shoe. Team A quickly runs a play from scrimmage. RULING:
Team A foul. Penalty—15 yards from the previous spot. There shall be
no simulated replacement of a player to confuse the opponents, and a
player who communicates must remain in the game for one down.

III. A1 leaves the field of play during a down. Team A huddles with 10
players. Substitute A12 enters, and A2 simulates leaving the field but
sets near the sideline for a “hide-out’’ pass. RULING: Penalty—15
yards from the previous spot. This is a simulated replacement of a player
to confuse opponents.

IV. While a team is legally set to attempt a field goal, the potential holder for
the kick goes toward his team area asking for a shoe. A shoe is thrown
on the field and the player, in motion toward his team area, turns toward
the goal line. The ball is snapped to the player in the kicking position,
who throws a pass to the player who had turned up field after asking for
a shoe. RULING: Penalty—15 yards from the previous spot.

V. Team A is lined up in scrimmage kick formation and has been set for
one second. One of the offensive backs shouts to and motions to A40,
the blocker on the right wing, to get off the field. At the snap, A40 is in
legal motion toward his sideline. A40 turns downfield and becomes a
pass receiver. RULING: Penalty—15 yards from the previous spot. This
is a tactic associated with the substitution process to deceive opponents.

StudyingFutureZebra

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Re: Question about unfair tactics
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2013, 01:24:25 PM »
This is an illegal play. 15 yards from the previous spot. See bulletin play #2 in http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/rules/football/2009/2009playsituationsno%203-1109.pdf (although the bulletin is from 2009 the relevant rules have not changed since).

I still don't understand why the rule language has not changed to reflect the play situation ruling.

That memorandum said if the quarterback runs towards the sideline and is moving at the time of the snap. The QB took a few steps, paused for one second and then the ball was snapped. That bulletin says that the QB was almost to the sideline and still moving when the ball was snapped.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Question about unfair tactics
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2013, 01:37:52 PM »
That memorandum said if the quarterback runs towards the sideline and is moving at the time of the snap. The QB took a few steps, paused for one second and then the ball was snapped. That bulletin says that the QB was almost to the sideline and still moving when the ball was snapped.

That does not matter. Note that this is a foul for an unfair act, not a foul for unfair tactic (using substitution process to deceive). If you feel otherwise, feel free to send the play in question to RR for a ruling.

We've discussed this type of play earlier and came to the conclusion that the bulletin play does apply. See http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=8835.msg84888#msg84888

Offline Tobbe56

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Re: Question about unfair tactics
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2013, 02:02:24 PM »
This is an illegal play. 15 yards from the previous spot. See bulletin play #2 in http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/rules/football/2009/2009playsituationsno%203-1109.pdf (although the bulletin is from 2009 the relevant rules have not changed since).

I still don't understand why the rule language has not changed to reflect the play situation ruling.


I agree seem weird that it isn´t picked up in the rules. According to this years rulebook it would be rule
9.2.3.d, right?
An obviously unfair act not specifically covered by the rules occurs during the game

btw I think it was Mizzou who ran the same play.

Offline Tobbe56

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Re: Question about unfair tactics
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2013, 03:41:08 PM »
I'm sure you'll get responses from more experienced officials than I, but I would say not even close.  There is only one player giving the appearance that he's 'confused,' and he's between the hash marks. With 10 ready to play, the defense needs to be prepared for the snap.

Agree, thats my gut feeling

Not in my experience, unless the coach mentions the play and asks for clarification.  Occasionally a coach will tell you about one of his plays/formations that has been flagged (he assumes incorrectly) by another crew.  It would then be appropriate to tell him that the play, as described, will/won't be flagged.  Otherwise, as an official I would not bring up the subject.
Thx, good to know.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Question about unfair tactics
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2013, 07:16:35 PM »
We've been given a guideline that if there is any verbal indication or interaction at all with the sideline indicating wrong players, wrong play, wrong anything, ....  that we need a flag, otherwise if the QB simply heads toward the sideline with a motion that complies with the rules for a player legally in motion then we are OK.  As noted, this is also one of the plays that should be disclosed during the pregame meeting between the coach and the crew to be aware of what's going on.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline James

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Re: Question about unfair tactics
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2013, 02:16:37 AM »
With 10 ready to play, the defense needs to be prepared for the snap.

I see at most 7 ready for play - the receivers seem to be in on the deception.

I seem to remember, but can not find in the rule book - maybe it was a bulletin something to like the wording of 'to deceive the defense into thinking the snap is not imminent' or something.

Anyone else know what I'm talking about - maybe I dreamed it...


Offline Sonofanump

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Re: Question about unfair tactics
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2013, 10:07:26 AM »
If I have no verbal from team A, I have four team A players moving before the snap and not resetting for a second before the snap.  No leway on a play like this.  Five yards from previous spot, kill it at the snap.  Let team A coach know that we considered 15 yard deception USC against him.  3&7 on the RFP.

Offline Andrew McCarthy

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