Author Topic: Ineligible Receivers - Defensive Holding vs. Pass Interference  (Read 6078 times)

Offline ALStripes17

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Ineligible Receivers - Defensive Holding vs. Pass Interference
« on: October 22, 2013, 12:56:49 PM »
2nd and 8 @ B45.  A1 is covered by A2.  A1 is intended target for a pass at B33, where B2 throws A1 out of the way and intercepts the pass - subsequently returning it for a 67 yd TD.  I have the TD stands because DPI cannot be called on a defender covering an ineligible receiver (correct?).

However, can defensive holding be called in this situation (on B2), even with an ineligible receiver (A1) and a loose ball play?  If not, what criteria must be met for defensive holding to be considered?

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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Ineligible Receivers - Defensive Holding vs. Pass Interference
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2013, 01:17:05 PM »
The answers to your questions can be found in NF: 2-3-5b which allow a defensive player to, "Push, pull or ward off an opponent in an actual attempt to get at the runner or a loose ball if such contact is not pass interference, a personal foul or illegal use of hands."

Offline ALStripes17

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Re: Ineligible Receivers - Defensive Holding vs. Pass Interference
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2013, 02:06:38 PM »
Outstanding.  I was having trouble locating the reference in my rule book.

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 FlAg1
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Offline maven

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Re: Ineligible Receivers - Defensive Holding vs. Pass Interference
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2013, 02:22:38 PM »
Throws him down? Sounds like illegal use of hands to me, and thus excluded from the permission granted by 2-3-5.

9-2-3c:

"A defensive player shall not:

c. Use his hands or arms to hook, lock, clamp, grasp, encircle or hold in an effort to restrain an opponent other than the runner."

If he just blocks him out of the way, he's good.
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.
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Offline ALStripes17

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Re: Ineligible Receivers - Defensive Holding vs. Pass Interference
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2013, 02:58:50 PM »
Violation of 9-2-3c constitutes a holding penalty (same enforcement as IUOH).

In my OP, my assumption is that there was nothing rough or unsportsmanlike on the play.  The defender is playing through an ineligible to get to a loose ball.

My best read on my own scenario is that as long as there was nothing rough, the contact with the ineligible is legal, and B will decline the IRD penalty in order to keep the TD.

But the question remains: is B2 committing a holding/illegal use of hands/etc. penalty by getting the ineligible (A1) out of the way in order to intercept the pass?

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Offline FLAHL

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Re: Ineligible Receivers - Defensive Holding vs. Pass Interference
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2013, 03:00:45 PM »
The answers to your questions can be found in NF: 2-3-5b which allow a defensive player to, "Push, pull or ward off an opponent in an actual attempt to get at the runner or a loose ball if such contact is not pass interference, a personal foul or illegal use of hands."

The wording above has always bothered me.  Is it possible to "pull an opponent in an actual attempt to get at the runner or loose ball" without holding or IUH?
"Never argue with stupid people.  They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Mark Twain

Offline ALStripes17

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Re: Ineligible Receivers - Defensive Holding vs. Pass Interference
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2013, 03:02:59 PM »
The wording above has always bothered me.  Is it possible to "pull an opponent in an actual attempt to get at the runner or loose ball" without holding or IUH?

 aWaRd pHiNzuP :thumbup tiphat:
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Offline maven

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Re: Ineligible Receivers - Defensive Holding vs. Pass Interference
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2013, 03:38:33 PM »
But the question remains: is B2 committing a holding/illegal use of hands/etc. penalty by getting the ineligible (A1) out of the way in order to intercept the pass?

You've got the applicable rules. The rest is official's judgment, but throwing an opponent down sounds like a hold to me.  Compare:

9.2.3 SITUATION C: [edited]

Quarterback A1 drops back 15 yards and throws a legal forward pass intended for A2, who is 5 yards behind the neutral zone. Before the pass reaches A2:

(a) B1 tackles A2...

RULING: In (a), tackling A2 is a foul, as it is a form of holding. Defensive players are prohibited from grasping an opponent other than the runner....

I'm giving more leeway to "pull an opponent" during a fumble than a pass. The line between a legal pull and an illegal hold might be fine, but that's why you get the big bucks.
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.
Aristotle

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Ineligible Receivers - Defensive Holding vs. Pass Interference
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2013, 04:29:28 PM »
It seems a reasonable interpretation of NF: 2-3-5b cautions, "Push, pull or ward off an opponent in an actual attempt to get at the runner or a loose ball if such contact is not pass interference, a personal foul or illegal use of hands.", would address any of the concerns related to inappropriate contact.

Offline VALJ

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Re: Ineligible Receivers - Defensive Holding vs. Pass Interference
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2013, 11:03:16 AM »
You've got the applicable rules. The rest is official's judgment, but throwing an opponent down sounds like a hold to me.  Compare:

9.2.3 SITUATION C: [edited]

Quarterback A1 drops back 15 yards and throws a legal forward pass intended for A2, who is 5 yards behind the neutral zone. Before the pass reaches A2:

(a) B1 tackles A2...

RULING: In (a), tackling A2 is a foul, as it is a form of holding. Defensive players are prohibited from grasping an opponent other than the runner....

From firsthand experience, the B coach is going to go nuts when you flag it.  We had this exact situation a couple of years back, and he went off.  "He's behind the line - you can't throw a flag!"  "Coach, if your guys hits him, no problem - but a hold is still a hold." 

Offline Ted T

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Re: Ineligible Receivers - Defensive Holding vs. Pass Interference
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2013, 11:32:40 PM »
It seems a reasonable interpretation of NF: 2-3-5b cautions, "Push, pull or ward off an opponent in an actual attempt to get at the runner or a loose ball if such contact is not pass interference, a personal foul or illegal use of hands.", would address any of the concerns related to inappropriate contact.

I'm with you on this one, Al.  If the grab is to pull a guy out of the way "in an actual attempt to get at... a loose ball" then it's legal. If it's not legal, then what are they trying to make legal when they use the word "pull" to apply to such a scenario?

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Ineligible Receivers - Defensive Holding vs. Pass Interference
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2013, 11:43:13 AM »
There's just no escaping the bottom line, most of the rules and interpretations eventually boil down to the judgment of that single person who is charged with deciding whether or not whatever they are watching violates a rule.  Just like "Beauty" the final decision whether, whatever you're watching crosses the line between allowable and punishable lays, "in the eye of the beholder".

It doesn't matter if a coach, spectator an anyone else disagrees, the decision itself has uniquely been reserved for the covering official alone, who it is presumed knows and understands the rule, and it's intent, is in position to accurately observe the action and makes his judgment TOTALLY impartial to the participants.

Given all those requirements being satisfied, EVERYONE else, whether in agreement or not, is expected to accept the judgment, and move on, or request clarification that may require use of a charged time out .

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Re: Ineligible Receivers - Defensive Holding vs. Pass Interference
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2013, 07:09:35 PM »
First of all it doesn't matter what level the game is: they all should be officiated the same. Especially at the high school level. I would guess there is more of a "fudge factor" when working youth sports but overall at the high school level, whether it's freshman, JV or varsity it pretty much should be officiated the same.
The game is important to the participates; All they want is a fairly officiated game. To say "I won't make this call because it's not a varsity game does a disservices to all participants.
So I think the OPI was an excellent call. Offensive receivers blocking down field is a no-no. There is no judgment involved. You do it and get flagged for it.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Ineligible Receivers - Defensive Holding vs. Pass Interference
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2013, 07:51:56 PM »
First of all it doesn't matter what level the game is: they all should be officiated the same. Especially at the high school level. I would guess there is more of a "fudge factor" when working youth sports but overall at the high school level, whether it's freshman, JV or varsity it pretty much should be officiated the same.
The game is important to the participates; All they want is a fairly officiated game. To say "I won't make this call because it's not a varsity game does a disservices to all participants.

Absolutely not!

Should they all be officiated to the best of your ability?  Yes.
Should they all be officiated with the same enthusiasm?  They should.
Should you apply the same standards to a Freshman game that you do to a Varsity game?  No way.

1.  You will be there all night, with 40 flags on the field.
2.  Sub-varsity ball is much more of a learning experience.

Of course you call all safety fouls.  And you have to call those that cause an illegal advantage.  But technical violations that give no advantage should be called with much less of an official eye with the younger kids than with Varsity players.  Use it as a teaching experience, tell them what they did wrong, but some things that may be fouls in a Varsity game should be let go in a Freshman game.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Ineligible Receivers - Defensive Holding vs. Pass Interference
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2013, 07:51:39 AM »
First of all it doesn't matter what level the game is: they all should be officiated the same.

Not at all. If safety is involved we call it, but technical penalties are dependent upon level of play.

Play 1: 1st quarter. A is in formation with 6 on the line of scrimmage. 2 receivers come to your side of the field. They both line up on the line of scrimmage. One of the receivers fails to line up in the backfield. Both receivers are covered by defensive players, and both go down field at the snap and are covered by their respective players.

JV: No flag. Talk to the coach after the play and tell him that both receivers were on the line.
Varsity: Flag.

Play 2: A is attempting a punt. After the ready for play, with all players on both teams in formation, center lifts the ball up off the ground 6" to rotate the ball and places it back down. No team B player jumps. Ball is hiked 5 seconds later, punted away.

JV: No flag. Talk to the coach after the play (or the player) and tell them that they/he cannot lift the ball up off the ground.
Varsity: flag, immediate whistle when this occurs. Do not let play go off.

Play 3: 4th down for team A. Previous play ended at :40.

Blow-out: Whistle next play in at :25 or less.
Close game: Whistle next play in when you get the ball spotted.


Play 4: Team B unintentionally tackles Team A player by the facemask.
JV: Flag every time
Varsity: Flag every time


Officiating is a lot about knowing what fouls to call in what game situation.



Offline VALJ

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Re: Ineligible Receivers - Defensive Holding vs. Pass Interference
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2013, 07:57:51 AM »
Play 1: 1st quarter. A is in formation with 6 on the line of scrimmage. 2 receivers come to your side of the field. They both line up on the line of scrimmage. One of the receivers fails to line up in the backfield. Both receivers are covered by defensive players, and both go down field at the snap and are covered by their respective players.

JV: No flag. Talk to the coach after the play and tell him that both receivers were on the line.
Varsity: Flag.

Not sure I'd flag the first occurrence in a varsity game, either.  I'd talk to somebody as a reminder.

Also, if the man who is covered up is the one that the pass is intended for, I'm going to flag this the first time, whether it's a JV or varsity game.


Offline bbeagle

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Re: Ineligible Receivers - Defensive Holding vs. Pass Interference
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2013, 09:11:04 AM »
Not sure I'd flag the first occurrence in a varsity game, either.  I'd talk to somebody as a reminder.

Also, if the man who is covered up is the one that the pass is intended for, I'm going to flag this the first time, whether it's a JV or varsity game.

Yes, this is all ambiguous and depending on game situations and opponent skill levels. It does depend on whether the ball goes to him or not, you're right.




Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Ineligible Receivers - Defensive Holding vs. Pass Interference
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2013, 09:55:11 AM »
Officials' calls can be broken down to two catagories : OBJECTIVE - Calls you have to make, such as - inbounds / out of bounds, catch / no catch , forward progress and the like. Often these occurred without fouls. SUBJECTIVE - Fouls that give one team an unfair advantage or are of a dangerous nature should always be called. The official needs to decide how strict he is going to be of fouls that are of a minor nature, are not obvious and have no baring on the play. A good P_S understands that a 25 MPH speed limit should be more strongly enforced at noon than at midnight. A good  ^flag understands that a "good job" isn't trying to see how many flags he can throw. An old ML baseball umpire once told me : "Don't be a walking rule book waiting to happen." I beleive that.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 09:57:56 AM by Ralph Damren »