Questions on keys

[dvasques]

Guys, I got two dif sources on determining keys and I'm trying to get to a good place for our new mechs manual here in Brasil

One manual says position of A players on or off the line does NOT matter when determining keys
CFO manual says "keys are often determined by wheather a team A player is on or off the line"

But when the CFO manual goes into the examples, it never takes into consideration if the player is on or off the line

So what is it?

[fencewire]

Talking strictly pre-snap, F and S always have #1 to their side.

Then it becomes an IF/then decision.

If # of backs = 0
    Then L and H have #2 on their sides and B has #3 wherever he is

If # of backs = 1
   If no trips or trips to H
      Then L has the back and H has #2 on his side and B has the remaining eligible
   If trips to L
       Then L has #2 on his side and H has the back, B has #3 to L

If # of backs >=2
    Then for the most part you let them declare as they come out of the backfield, however typically if there are two L and H take the back to their side.

As far as I am aware on or off doesn't matter unless they are stacked.
 

[Kalle]

I find it easier to think:

F and S have the widest eligible receiver on their side.

B has the innermost eligible receiver outside the tackles. If the receivers are balanced, he takes the innermost on the L side. If there are only two receivers outside the tackles, he takes the first back out of the backfield.

H and L have whoever is left.

[Sonofanump]

As far as I am aware on or off doesn't matter unless they are stacked.

We let them declare (by their initial direction of pattern or blocking) themsleves at the snap if they are stacked. 

[fencewire]

Yup...

Sometimes there are differences in opinions when they are stacked but that is definitely the easiest and best way.

[Magician]

Talking strictly pre-snap, F and S always have #1 to their side.

Then it becomes an IF/then decision.

If # of backs = 0
    Then L and H have #2 on their sides and B has #3 wherever he is

If # of backs = 1
   If no trips or trips to H
      Then L has the back and H has #2 on his side and B has the remaining eligible
   If trips to L
       Then L has #2 on his side and H has the back, B has #3 to L

If # of backs >=2
    Then for the most part you let them declare as they come out of the backfield, however typically if there are two L and H take the back to their side.

As far as I am aware on or off doesn't matter unless they are stacked.
 

The issue with using this terminology is the wideout off the line of scrimmage is also a back.  Almost every play has 4 backs.  I know you are talking about backs between the tackles.  I've found key identification much easier when basing it on the players who determine it.  Kalle's explanation is much simpler and closer to what I've learned.

[Kalle]

Kalle's explanation is much simpler and closer to what I've learned.

I blatantly copied it from our (IFAF/BAFRA) mechanics manual

[fencewire]

If you primarily work deep then the other definition is obviously easier to understand, although since I primarily work, H it is much easier for ME to look for "Eligible receivers located at the snap such that he is aligned within or mostly inside the low blocking zone not in a position to receive a hand to hand snap or the person normally considered to be the QB or a facsimile thereof." since I am already counting the offense and looking for "backs", then working inside out. 

Everyone does it differently based on their position and thought processes. 

[Magician]

When I worked short wing I made it even simpler.  When I was L the only time I had a wideout was when we had trips.  If trips were on my side I had the middle guy.  If trips were on the other side I had the inside guy.  Otherwise I had a back inside the tackle box.  When I was the H, I usually had the second guy in regardless of formation.  The B was only on my side if we were strong.  That would either be with trips on our side or two on our side and 2 backs inside the tackle box (not counting the QB).

In general it was easy to start with the default and then adjust if something changed it.  75% of the time the default was it.

[bafra31]

A warning that the CFO key system and the BAFRA/IFAF one do have a significant difference when there are three receivers on one side of the formation. SJ/FJ will always take the widest man, but whereas in BAFRA/IFAF the BJ would take the player nearest the tackle, in CFO H or L would take him (and vice versa for the middle of the three receivers).

We are different so that the BJ's key remains similar when switching between 5 and 7-man crews - an issue that CFO don't (usually) have.

[Diablo]

If your key moves out of your area, how long do you stay with him?

What does it take for you to monitor another receiver coming into your area?

[Sonofanump]

A warning that the CFO key system and the BAFRA/IFAF one do have a significant difference when there are three receivers on one side of the formation. SJ/FJ will always take the widest man, but whereas in BAFRA/IFAF the BJ would take the player nearest the tackle, in CFO H or L would take him (and vice versa for the middle of the three receivers).

We are different so that the BJ's key remains similar when switching between 5 and 7-man crews - an issue that CFO don't (usually) have.

The COC/Midwest Alliance has the BJ taking the third man in and LOS the middle eligible.  If at the snap the third guy in blocks, the two swtich keys immediately.

[Sonofanump]

I did not see it mentioned in the thread, but wanted to it to be said.

A player in motion is ignored by the F/S & B.  They will never have him as an initial key, it is always on the LOS.

[James]

If the receivers are balanced, he takes the innermost on the L side.

Question: does he always go to the L side? What is the background for this (maybe to do with the L releasing down field when a pass is read?)? I thought he first decided wide side, and if there wasn't one then went to L.

[Kalle]

Question: does he always go to the L side? What is the background for this (maybe to do with the L releasing down field when a pass is read?)? I thought he first decided wide side, and if there wasn't one then went to L.

L stays put and H releases, so B has to take the second man on the L side when there are 2+2.

[robin083]

My question about keys, and maybe it's my inexperience, but how long is an official supposed to follow them after the snap? Until another offensive player enters that official's zone? Different for every official? I have never had this explained to me succinctly.

[BamaRef]

I did not see it mentioned in the thread, but wanted to it to be said.

A player in motion is ignored by the F/S & B.  They will never have him as an initial key, it is always on the LOS.

I may be reading your post wrong, however, according to CCA Mechanics, the F or S could have the motion man as their key if he is the widest receiver at the snap.