Targeting+(Other Foul) Announcement

[Legacy Zebra]

B1 targets QB A1 above the neck after A1 has released a pass. What is the proper announcement/signal sequence? Do you announce both fouls, just the targeting, just the other foul? Likewise do you signal both, or just one?

[Kalle]

From the rule change announcement: "The referee throws a flag and announces that there is roughing the passer with targeting"

You might as well signal both, too.

[fencewire]

This year in NCAA it is very important that both fouls are announced and signaled, because if replay determines that there is no targeting, they can remove the DQ, but not the other foul, in this case roughing the passer.

Personal foul (s38), roughing the passer (s34), #99, targeting (s24).  #99 is disqualified (s47).  The previous play is under review.

At least, that's how I see it.

[bossman72]

B1 targets QB A1 above the neck after A1 has released a pass. What is the proper announcement/signal sequence? Do you announce both fouls, just the targeting, just the other foul? Likewise do you signal both, or just one?

Personal foul [signal], roughing the passer [signal], targeting foul [signal], #99 defense.  15 yard penalty, automatic first down.  In addition, for targeting, #99 has been disqualified from the game.

[ref6983]

I've been told that if targeting is the only reason for roughing the passer, then only announce targeting. If there is another aspect, then "roughing the passer with targeting" is announced.

[Kalle]

I've been told that if targeting is the only reason for roughing the passer, then only announce targeting. If there is another aspect, then "roughing the passer with targeting" is announced.

Well, if the targeting happens before it is obvious that the ball has been thrown, then you obviously won't have RTP, only TGT. If the TGT happens after, it is both RTP and TGT and you need to announce both, as the replay may overrule you on the TGT aspect, and if you don't announce RTP, there won't be any foul left to enforce if replay overrules.

This is consistent with the example #1 in the rule change announcement, where there is only a targeting hit happening obviously after the ball has been thrown.

[ref6983]

Well, if the targeting happens before it is obvious that the ball has been thrown, then you obviously won't have RTP, only TGT. If the TGT happens after, it is both RTP and TGT and you need to announce both, as the replay may overrule you on the TGT aspect, and if you don't announce RTP, there won't be any foul left to enforce if replay overrules.

This is consistent with the example #1 in the rule change announcement, where there is only a targeting hit happening obviously after the ball has been thrown.

If targeting is the only reason roughing the passer is called, then there is nothing left to enforce if replay reverses, so there really is no foul on the play. Therefore, only targeting is announced.

If there is targeting and the hit is late, then you do have another aspect so we are supposed to announce "roughing the passer with targeting", so that everyone knows we are marking off 15 yards regardless of what replay does with the targeting.

That is the direction I've heard from people who supposedly are in the know.

[Kalle]

If there is targeting and the hit is late, then you do have another aspect so we are supposed to announce "roughing the passer with targeting"

If you mean by "late" that the hit is after the ball has obviously been thrown, then we agree, we just use different language. You can only have RTP if the hit is after the ball has obviously been thrown, not before, but you can have targeting, as the passer in the act of passing or immediately after the pass is considered a defenseless player.

[ref6983]

If you mean by "late" that the hit is after the ball has obviously been thrown, then we agree, we just use different language. You can only have RTP if the hit is after the ball has obviously been thrown, not before, but you can have targeting, as the passer in the act of passing or immediately after the pass is considered a defenseless player.

Yes, I think we are saying the same thing, but there are other types of roughing the passer other than hitting him after the ball has obviously been thrown, although they are far less likely in targeting situations.

[younggun]

Yes, I think we are saying the same thing, but there are other types of roughing the passer other than hitting him after the ball has obviously been thrown, although they are far less likely in targeting situations.

The only RGP fouls are after he throws the ball. EXCEPTION: New Low Hit Foul for 2014. Also if the passer is a runner and get hit high it does not have to constitute TGT because he is not defenseless by rule. (Unless the contact is with crown of helmet.)

[ref6983]

The only RGP fouls are after he throws the ball. EXCEPTION: New Low Hit Foul for 2014. Also if the passer is a runner and get hit high it does not have to constitute TGT because he is not defenseless by rule. (Unless the contact is with crown of helmet.)

Mostly, but not quite. A roughing the passer foul does not have to occur after the ball has obviously been thrown. A blow to the head, not targeting, while he is throwing but hasn't quite released would still be considered a roughing the passer foul and should be announced as such.

[Kalle]

A blow to the head, not targeting, while he is throwing but hasn't quite released would still be considered a roughing the passer foul and should be announced as such.

Umm, what kind of a blow to the head would not be targeting but would be "roughing the passer"? Granted, the rule talks about aiming and going beyond a legal tackle, but I think all blows to the head (not the neck area) are aimed and going beyond a legal tackle.

The rule for RTP (9-1-9) is pretty specific. "No defensive player shall charge into a passer or throw him to the ground when it is obvious the ball has been thrown." (plus the new low hit provision) Nothing about other times, so you can't really flag anything before or after as RTP, unless your supervisor has instructed you to do things differently from the NCAA rules.

[ref6983]

Umm, what kind of a blow to the head would not be targeting but would be "roughing the passer"? Granted, the rule talks about aiming and going beyond a legal tackle, but I think all blows to the head (not the neck area) are aimed and going beyond a legal tackle.

The rule for RTP (9-1-9) is pretty specific. "No defensive player shall charge into a passer or throw him to the ground when it is obvious the ball has been thrown." (plus the new low hit provision) Nothing about other times, so you can't really flag anything before or after as RTP, unless your supervisor has instructed you to do things differently from the NCAA rules.

There have been at least two training videos that address RPS on the CFO website that discuss blows to the head. Those, along with targeting videos have made it clear that forcible contact to the head of the passer is a foul but may not reach the level of a targeting foul unless the defender is in fact targeting the head. Quite often, this contact occurs without the targeting aspect.

It is very likely the RPS section will be rewritten next cycle to make the rule match the guidelines and the way the play is officiated now.

[Kalle]

There have been at least two training videos that address RPS on the CFO website that discuss blows to the head. Those, along with targeting videos have made it clear that forcible contact to the head of the passer is a foul but may not reach the level of a targeting foul unless the defender is in fact targeting the head. Quite often, this contact occurs without the targeting aspect.

It is very likely the RPS section will be rewritten next cycle to make the rule match the guidelines and the way the play is officiated now.

I really need to pony up the $100 this year... strangely, though, the NCAA play situations bulletin 1/2013 has this to say for a non-targeting contact to the head of the passer: "This could potentially be a foul for roughing the passer depending on whether it is obvious that the pass has been thrown." This seems to contradict the training videos.

[Rulesman]

Kalle, a lot of water has run under the bridge since January 2013.

[DJW201]

Most of what I have seen on this relates to targeting and RTP, and I have a question about KCI and targeting.  There is KCI and targeting is called.  Nevetheless, B recovers the kick and advances more than 15 yards from the spot of the interference.  IR confirms the targeting call.  If KCI with targeting is the call (i.e., only one foul), the offending player is disqualified but the distance penalty is declined because it is enforced from the spot of the interference.  If KCI and targeting are called (i.e., really multiple fouls), the distance penalty for the targeting foul can be tacked on.  RTP with or without targeting would have the same enforcement spot for the distance penalty.

[Kalle]

Rule 6-4-1-g to the rescue (unless it has changed for this year). Any KCI which involves a PF type action, targeting or otherwise, can be enforced at the spot where the dead ball belongs to team B, if team B so wishes.